Let me preface this by saying unequivocally that I can’t stand this guy.
The video below features Mark Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, part of the whole “young, restless, and Reformed” contingent in Christendom today. He’s also “buds” with Baldy of the FOC — which is currently imploding, by the way, with The Washington Post currently looking into child molestation coverups, oops — and, in my opinion, just a teensy bit full of himself. Others think he’s “edgy” and “real.” I’ve watched a number of his sermons on YouTube and, well, I find him a spiritual bully and an intellectual lightweight.
(Not that I’m trying to influence your thoughts here or anything.)
Actually, I don’t need to. This video speaks for itself. Watch it and see my comments below.
~ First of all, Slappy, I’m glad you “see things.” I see a pastor/alleged grown man in a Mickey Mouse t-shirt is what I see.
~ Really, I have no problem with “the gift of discernment.” I understand that sometimes people see things in the spiritual realm. I believe that too. But …. part of the gift of discernment — one would assume — is using it with discernment which you clearly don’t do. I mean, calling a woman out on her adultery in front of her husband? Who does that? A d-bag, that’s who. Discernment would demand that you pull this woman aside and privately tell her your whole “I see naked people” vision. Obviously, you got off on exposing and humiliating this woman in front of her husband, but you seem completely unable to see that you humiliated the husband too. He heard these words from you, his pastor, not his wife, when it’s her job to tell him, not yours. Such a revelation is between the husband and wife and should have nothing to do with you. I mean, this just seems like Relationships 101 to me.
~ At one point you said — in referring to things one might “see” — “Don’t assume it’s true.” So that’s what you did in the above scenario, right? And that’s what you did when you said to one person, “You don’t know this but you were abused as a child,” right? Look. Just because you “see things” doesn’t mean they’re always correct nor does it mean that you are the person who should share them nor does it mean that you should share them the very instant you “see” them. Why not pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal things or to shake someone’s conscience or whatever? Why not pray about if/when you’re supposed to share what you think you saw? Why is it your job to do so except that you get off on the perceived power of it? You get your rocks off by Jesus showing you things that you believe he’s not showing anyone else. Quit doing Jesus’ job.
~ What if what you saw isn’t, in fact, true and you put that idea in someone’s head? “You don’t know this, but you were molested as a kid.” What if that’s actually NOT true? How cruel is that? How reckless? To plant a false seed in someone’s psyche?
~ And, yes, when confronted with allegations of molest, most molesters just freely and instantly admit it, like grandpa in your example. Yeah. That happens ALL the time. I totally believe that part.
~ About the woman with the physically abusive husband. So, did you call the cops? Sure, you called the dude into your office so you could expose him, but did you call the cops? Did you call the cops about any of these things? These rapes and abuses and molestations you “see”? You’re more than willing to blurt it out in an exercise of your spiritual power and “knowledge,” but what about involving the authorities? Or would that be too much of an abdication of your power to involve the secular legal powers? Wouldn’t want to do that now, would we?
Sickening.
(Also, Mark Driscoll: I don’t like your eyes. There’s something cold and off about them. I “see” things about you because of them.)
And here I thought I’d lost my crankypants, but they’re back, babeee, and tight as ever.
Oh, ick.
“I don’t talk about this, I’d end up like one of those guys on TV.”
Hey, Einstein, you’re talking about it on TV now, aren’t you? You’re mic’d up and everything.
Also – describing the adultery in lurid detail, like a romance novel? OK, nice cold read about the tall guy who fit her fantasy body type and that “certain-colored bedspread” in that motel, you know the one, the motel-shaped one, with the office and the parking lot, and the room that had lights you could leave on… but did Jesus give you a copy of Cosmo or something? “Dear God – I never thought this could happen to me!!” Also – ewwwwww. Stay classy.
And, yes, when confronted … most molesters just freely and instantly admit it, like grandpa in your example.
I know, right? You cracked the case, Mark Driscoll! Good thing you interview all those evil creeps the cops arrest and get their confessions so easily.
Discernment is a real thing – some of the documented cases among the saints are truly mind-popping. But I struggle with the idea of Jesus tattling on you to your pastor. There’s a reason we’re always warned to be wary about this sort of direct knowledge coming at us through spiritual means. Even if it’s true, the source might not be wholesome, especially if the knowledge is used to other people’s harm. Calumny is still wrong, whether you found out from God’s Closed-Circuit TV or a high-powered telescope on the balcony. Are you actually pastoring people with this knowledge of yours, or just controlling them?
I think you have the genuine Gift of Crankypants. I’m sure that’s on the list of the fruits of the Spirit…
Oh Tracey, this guy gives me the heebie-jeebies. your concerns mirror many of mine. Living in the NW I hear people talk about this guy like he’s the Next Coming. Yikes for Christendom when this is who people look to for leadership and teaching.
The grandpa admitted it so easily… right! Even the guys Chris Hanson catches on camera deny it right off the bat.
I’ve seen enough and heard enough from this guy that I worry for those that flock around him.
Real men don’t lie Mark, and you are a liar! I don’t believe a single story he told in this video.
Every story he tells is not to show that he has the “gift of discernment” but that he was right.
Sometimes I see things too, buddy boy Mark Driscoll. If you want to talk to people who really see things, talk to those studiers of human behavior – actors. We can smell a lie from a mile away. We see EVERYTHING. You know what I see, Mark? I see a damaged little chubby boy who was abused and made fun of and now you feel it’s payback time. “Ha, look at me now, bulliers and meanies. I SEE THINGS.”
Transparent.
It’s like that great scene in True Romance between Christopher Walken and Dennis Hopper and Walken says, “You don’t want to tell me anything, but you’re showing me everything.”
Ew. This guy is creepy. People fall for this?
And Tracey – awesome about the Washington Post. It’s about time the media looked into that story. The implosion has begun.
Did you see the title given to it on Youtube? “Mark Driscoll ‘s Pornographic Divination”. Indeed.
NF — You’re killing me!
//in that motel, you know the one, the motel-shaped one, with the office and the parking lot, and the room that had lights you could leave on…//
Yes, he haaaas the powwwwwer!
//Are you actually pastoring people with this knowledge of yours, or just controlling them?//
Bingo. Amen. Yahtzee. Gin.
Brian — You know, I don’t either. I don’t believe these stories. I mean, he’s basically saying that twice he confronted or knows of molesters confronted with their molest who just caved and admitted it?? BS. And one guy admitted it and said, “Yeah, but you were only 1 or 2”? Uhm, I just do not believe it.
sheila — Good point. It’s not about discernment with him. It’s about being right. You can see that in his eyes. They gleam with self-righteousness. He’s gloating is what he’s doing. “Look at me and my DISCERNMENT! Look at me BRAG about my discernment” which, naturally, is what the gift of discernment is all about.
Blech.
And yeah, what happens if he says to someone he’s counseling, “I see that you were unfaithful, and he was 6 feet tall, and had blonde hair, and you had sex with the lights on, and the bedcovers had pink swirls on them, and you drank a mojito … I see it all” – and the person says, “Dude, WTF are you talking about? You just made that sh** up. None of that happened at all.” What do you do then with this crazy risky gift of discernment that you have? “Oops, sorry, must have been thinking of someone else.”
I don’t believe one word he says.
Like Brian, I don’t see what people see in him. I guess I’m using my gift of discernment when it comes to Mark Driscoll. His beef with me comes down to his view of women and their role in the church.
I’ve been meaning to tell you about this new blog I’ve found….
http://www.quiveringdaughters.com/
It’s an interesting blog for people who have been through spiritual abuse. It’s set up mainly for women who are in authoritarian families, but, I’ve found many articles throughout that can apply to men who have experienced spiritual abuse.
Mark is one of many “Pastors” out there that have developed a cult of personality. It’s sad that a once proud profession that was to lead others to Christ now leads others to buy their books, view their Youtube channel, like their FB page, and to fill their pews. There are many many good men and women who are preaching and teaching in the name of Jesus who get overshadowed by the “Mark Driscolls” of the world.
Ugh. Keep your crankypants on, girl.
I knew I’d heard this guy’s name somewhere! This link is to the blog of the man who was the pulpit minister at College Church of Christ when I was in college. He is. . .not a fan.
http://preachermike.com/2010/10/04/do-you-need-a-jesus-who-can-beat-you-up
Oooh, and another one!
http://preachermike.com/2008/05/13/a-jesus-for-real-men
Hey, pippa! Sorry, I wasn’t able to get to moderated comments today. Working, working ….
Kathi — I’m with you on his view of women. Not a fan of that whole complementarian deal. And I love Quivering Daughters! I discovered it a while back somehow, but thank you for reminding me of it.
Lisa — Hey Lisa! Thanks for those links. I’ll check them out.
Deryn — Crankypants. ON.
You know… the more I think about it the more this irks me.
The confession of sins and reconciliation with God is a sacrament in my church. It’s a Big Deal. A priest is not allowed to talk about your confessions with ANYBODY, from the Pope to the parish house cat. Allow me to get a little Catechetical with y’all… from Chapter 2, Article 4, Section 8 –
1) Asking if someone was abused is probably like a 50-50 thing, which is how most “psychics” get their foot in the door, with something there is a likelihood of people saying yes to it. The word “abuse” has gotten a lot broader as the years have gone by, anyway.
2) Going off what ‘Fly said–did this dude’s “discernment” (which doesn’t feel like the right word to me, but anyway) actually make things better? I don’t know. If you look at stories about St. Pio of Pietrelchina, who could read hearts (that’s the term I know better), he did it way differently. Then again, he was a priest, so maybe that made a difference. Dunno.
3) Speaking of which, that hoodie & mickey tee make me appreciate my pastor’s cassock all the more.
4) Long live The Crankypants!
“I mean, calling a woman out on her adultery in front of her husband? Who does that? A d-bag, that’s who.”
You kill me.:)
Nightfly – That’s interesting regarding the sacrament of confession.
However, I don’t think that Driscoll is asking for confession. It’s more like he’s using extortion. I think the definition of extortion is very fitting: “the crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the abuse of one’s office or authority.”
Granted, I didn’t see or hear his entire message, but, what purpose is his “discernment” in helping the other person? In the clip that we saw, he doesn’t really mention that. All he mentions is how HE was able to see sin in other’s lives and call them out on it – whether it be real or not. Thus, his abuse of power and the devaluing of another person.
Perhaps we should all focus on loving Jesus more instead of hating or “not standing” our brother. Division will eat you alive.
Oh, thank GOD total stranger Jeremy is here to set us a-rights!
Look, peaches. It is the HEIGHT of Internet rudeness to barge onto a blog as a total stranger and waggle your fingers at the people you find there.
I’m not “divided” from Mr. Driscoll. I don’t even know the man. I’m allowed, as is everyone here, to have opinions about the public ministry of a public pastor. I have negative opinions of him. It’s my prerogative. (Who was it that said, “Alexander the metalsmith did me much harm”? The apostle Paul, was it? Hmm.) I’m allowed to have opinions. You’re allowed to have yours, too, but you’ve barged onto my blog — a blog that has existed for SEVEN years now — and essentially passed judgment on me and my readers based on one post. My judgment — or what I prefer to call discernment — regarding Mr. Driscoll comes from watching numerous YouTube videos of his sermons and coming to conclusions based on what I would call the preponderance of evidence. YOU, on the other hand, have read this one post, pronounced a judgment on us, and preached at us. Please don’t barge in here again telling us all what to do. You will find yourself a very tepid welcome here.
Perhaps “you” should simply worry about yourself and not the opinions of a bunch of strangers on a blog.
I mean it’s alright to dislike the way someone goes about things, but it’s really discouraging to see so much public “discernment ” between a body. The only people we are to ostricize are false prophets. While you can disagree with his methods and philosophy, the truth is he clearly articulates the Gospel. So if he’s not a false prophet and in fact many are coming to know Christ under his pastoring, then no where in the Bible does it say to ridicule or cut down… especially in a public realm where strangers are likely to stumble on your blog. I don’t mean to assume your intentions are bad or anything but I know I’ve has a tendency in the past to have heated opinions about others and their doctrines in a public realm like facebook until it was brought to my intention that outsiders may see it and it would confuse them about our faith. My comment was a bit snarkmy and for that I ask your forgiveness. Praise God his grace covers my hypocrisy!
Jeremy —
Thank you for your apology. Accepted. The thing is, you can’t know the context for my opinion of this man since you’re new to the blog. I’m not ostracizing Mr. Driscoll. I don’t have that power and I’m not sure who does, actually. I simply don’t embrace some of his views and, yes, I think some of what he puts out there is dangerous. Too many pastors in the modern church are becoming their own little gods, their own little “cults of personality” — to borrow a phrase. I’ve personally encountered a few of these men myself and recently came out of a church with close ties to Driscoll’s run by men with similar megalomaniacal methods. Very dangerous.
VeryI will be taking Pastor Mark Driscoll’s videos down from my facebook page. This man for lack of a more bibical word (because I do not want to past judgement just yet and if so out of love) almost had me hook, line, and sinker…now sadly just sick to realize that Pastor Mark may not appear to be what he professes…meaning that I was so taken aback by his suppose, sincere authenticity…but now, on my end…it was gullibility…I cannot emphasize enough to all here that first, it is good that a conversation goes forth to wrap our minds around possible great deception…Secondly, it is also good as Jeremy hinted at to do things out of love…to that I agree with him in part…Now, thirdly and foremost…Pastor Mark Driscoll is quite possibly in great need of Deliverance prayerfully speaking if his ministry pans out to be a very deceptive falsehood…and it looking at his fruits like a tree, this seems to be the overwhelming evidential case…Moreover, the psychological damage that can be wraught on his subjects/victims can be quite difficult for them to overcome less much prayer and therapy…At last, the most devastating impact is on the Kingdom of God…which substantiates Jesus saying to individuals having the responsibility of a Shepard though not exclusively as I interpret sacred scripture ” depart from me, I never knew you “…and these were the false phrophets, miracle workers, and individuals excorcizing demons from people…Mars Hill and it’s Pastor appears to have quite possible some very chilling ingredients not to dissimiliar from shall I posit – “The Jim Jones Cult”…
…please forgive my bad english, still waking up…no pun…
This was a great read! Thanks for posting!
Freaky pastor behavior!