The whole psychology of the apology is interesting to me. Why people do it, why they don’t (duh), HOW people do it, how they mess it up, how to do it right. I’ve talked about this a lot on the blog in the past. I tend to think the apology as a social convention and spiritual necessity is on its way out. People generally think they’re right at all times. I understand that. I generally think I’m right at all times. And because we generally think we’re right at all times, we don’t want to apologize because that would mean we’re actually admitting we’re wrong and then what oh what will happen to our view of ourselves that we are generally right at all times? It messes with our head. But the extent to which it messes with our heads is tied, I think, to just how much our sense of self is invested in believing we are right at all times. The greater we’re defined by our own “rightness,” the more likely we are to feel diminished by an apology and, therefore, the less likely we are to actually apologize. Or the more likely we are to offer a non-apology apology which gives the illusion of hitting the mark but is really a psychological sleight of hand.
I’m about to copy and paste my own final comment in the now-infamous “Kevin” thread, which makes me look both needy and self-important and, well, I have to plead mea culpa on that. Whatevs. But I want to talk about an “apology” he gave at one point in that …. discussion? diatribe? harangue? Whatever that whole dealio actually was. I may look like I’m throwing him under the bus, but Kevin basically threw himself under the bus with no assist from me or anyone else. I’ve banned him now — if it actually worked, since I think he’s at least occasionally using an anonymous proxy to surf the Net — and he won’t be commenting here again, so I think it’s safe to discuss this as a case study, so to speak. I made the choice to ban him because I don’t want to have the kind of blog I think Kevin WANTS me to have. I don’t want to come on my blog and argue in the round every stinkin’ day. That’s just not who I am. Some people like that, are even energized by it. Not me. I just get dizzy and nauseous after a while.
Here’s what I said in my last comment on that thread. (Oh, and sarahk weighed in with a great comment at the very end.)
You know ….. another thing that’s stuck in my craw over this is what I call Kevin’s non-apology apology. (I’ve talked about the non-apology apology before on the blog.)
Way up in comment #29, Kevin said:
/Tracey, I’m sorry if my comment came across as condescending./
See that? The dropping of the “if†bomb in that “apology� No. That’s not an actual apology. An apology is taking sincere, honest ownership of what you said or did and not qualifying it IN ANY WAY. The ever-popular “IF†Bomb apology is a way to sound as if you’re apologizing when you’re really not. That one little word — if — does a huge thing: creates a sliver of possibility that, no, the offender DIDN’T really do or say the thing that you’re offended about. And, yes, it’s a sliver of qualification, but that’s HUGE in an apology. A person who does that isn’t taking ownership. He’s saying, subtly, “It’s YOUR problem that you perceived it that way.†He’s saying, “Maybe I did that, but MAYBE I DIDN’T.†It’s not a true humble apology. It’s BS and I call it.
Kevin had numerous people calling him on his condescension and contemptuous tone. He offered his If Bomb, his non-apology apology, and THEN CONTINUED TO BE CONDESCENDING AND CONTEMPTUOUS while all the while claiming moral superiority to the rest of us. “I’ve kept my cool.†“I haven’t returned insults.†Or whatever. Well, yes, he did, as I’ve already said earlier in this thread.
But if a person apologizes and is genuinely sorry, he turns away from the behavior that created the offense in the first place. What Kevin did would be like a husband who apologizes to his wife for being drunk on Wednesday night — while he’s drunk on Thursday night. In dropping that If Bomb, though, he gave himself permission to continue his bad behavior because maybe it’s a perception problem of, oh, a half a dozen people or more. Maybe it’s THEIR problem, not his. If If IF.
Gimme a break. That’s meaningless. A gloss-over. A knee-jerk thing to say that you really don’t mean. And it’s definitely NOT an apology.
So clearly, I was ramped up or on the sauce again or, most likely, both.
This is not a unique example. We’ve all received and/or offered these kinds of apologies ourselves. I mention it as an example of a common practice, not to point out Kevin as a unique offender. He’s not.
Sometimes that “if” will placate the offended or wronged person; sometimes, it won’t, but it’s definitely a useful — and cowardly — tool to make it look as if you’re humble and sorry, as if you rillyrilly care. At the core, it’s a deflection, a way to boomerang the whole issue back into the face of the offended, leaving them wondering, “Hm. Did I overreact?”
I don’t write about this thinking that I’ve got the whole apology thing nailed down because I don’t. It’s HARD to apologize. It is. I guess at this point in my life, for the sake of personal and spiritual growth, actually, I force myself to look at criticisms I receive and ask if there’s any truth in them, anything I need to own, no matter from whom they come (Doc, anyone?) and no matter how they’re phrased. And, yamahaha, Crackie, is it painful. It IS. Since I’m generally sure I’m right, I’m always feel as if I’m going to DIE when I sit down with a criticism and force myself to consider it. At that moment, I’m certain just the act of entertaining these less than pro-me thoughts will shrivel my pro-me brain into a useless tiny raisin rolling around in my head, killing me as swiftly as touching a live wire. Basically, it sucks. If I look at it as something I’m doing for me, though, something to keep me from becoming hard and calcified and bitter, then it hurts a tiny bit less. A very tiny bit less. When it’s an issue regarding a loved one, I try to ask myself, “Do I want a relationship or do I want to be right?” If I present it to myself that way — because, yes, I have to sneak up on myself — it’s an easy choice. A tiny bit easier choice.
Apologizing — really doing it — keeps us in touch with our own humanity. Our own frailties. That we can and do screw up. It acknowledges, too, the humanity of the person we’ve wronged or offended. Done wholeheartedly, it’s a weird but wonderful way to bind us together in the messiness of the human stew. Both parties find relief in the transaction when it’s sincerely given and sincerely received. Both parties are “seen.”
I don’t want to become numb to my own humanity. I don’t want to become numb to the humanity of others. If I can’t apologize or equivocate when and if I even do apologize, I’m already becoming that drone, emotionally numb and spiritually calloused, too captivated by my rightness to give a tiny rat’s bottom about anyone else.
And I don’t want to live my life gazing at the reflection of my own perceived rightness.
Because … how lonely is that?
Hmmm… As a “recovering condescending a-hole”. I might be able to shed some insight on Kevin’s behavior. When I was reading that comment stream (which, I think I purposely, just observed), I thought to myself:
“Kevin, I understand your point from a “logical” view, but humor ain’t something you can argue with logic. The joke is 1) not funny and 2) very offensive.”
The whole thing that he missed, AND I MISS ALL THE TIME, is that it is very condescending to proceed with an argument with the assumption that the other person doesn’t understand your point. The thinking is: “Well, if only this person would understand my point they would agree with me.” Instead, people like me need to sit back and assume that the person DOES understand my point, they just don’t agree with it! Therefore, the apology comes off as disingenuous even though it might be heartfelt, “I’m sorry that you got so upset, even though I am right and you are wrong…”
I have always fought against the postmodernist view of written language vs. the intentionalist view. If you misinterpret what I say, that’s YOUR problem, not mine. While I still don’t believe in postmoderism, I realize that the concepts may have validity. If I say something that I don’t MEAN to be condescending, it doesn’t matter what “I” think, it’s how the message is received (and, introspectively, it may actually be what I think subconsciously, which would make me a true postmodern thinker… the horror, the horror!).
All of this is to say, I agree with you, Tracey, a true apology has no preconditions. It doesn’t matter what I THOUGHT I was doing, the point is is that I offended someone and I should apologize. By the same token, if you really don’t believe you are at fault, don’t say you’re sorry!.. because you’re not.
BTW, The whole “I’m sorry you feel that way (but I’m not really sorry)” came out during the assertiveness training craze in the late 70s, early 80s. I took this as a seminar at the Air Force Academy in ’82, which many at USAFA at the time called “How to be a NICE a-hole training”
I’m no more a postmodernist than JFH, though I did take a lot of English classes, so they tried their level best. Don’t blame the University.
The problem here is that the “if” is rather like all those misplaced apostrophes trying to pass themselves off as plurals. It just is NOT right to say “book’s sold here” or something, no matter what. The thing is, people usually understand it anyway, even as they groan.
Likewise the “IF you were offended, I apologize.” Of COURSE the other person was offended, that’s WHY we’re apologizing! BUT – and I offer this very tentatively [and if anyone is offended by it, I apologize 😉 ] – I think the IF is not always meant as a conditional, but as a shorthand to suggest that the person didn’t mean to offend. Yes, it is a self-defense mechanism in part, a reassurance that “surely I’m not the kind of person who wanders the earth, giving offense to those who need it.” But they’re trying to convey to the other person that it was a lapse, a moment of nitwittery in an otherwise witful existence. A more straight-out “I’m sorry, that was awful of me” usually means that they actually did intend (at the moment) to be callous and ugly, and now they’re thoroughly ashamed and are repenting.
Not all the time of course. This “IF” business usually works best among people who really know and like each other, because then already understand that it was all a horrible mistake and let’s just forgive it and get right. The IF is least offensive when it is least necessary. Coming in cold off the street, as it were, and then using the “IF” is not one of those times.
In any case, I think that you’re right on this, Tracey, and that “IF” is sloppy, like all those idiot apostrophes. I know that once I pay attention I’ll catch myself sticking “IF” into apology after apology. From now on I’m going to practice saying “I’m sorry THAT I offended you,” even if it’s only a grammatical point at first.
I have spent a long time thinking about apology and forgiveness, but primarily from the forgiveness side of things.
When I was in my late teens, I was easily hurt by lots of things. I tried to hide it, but people did things that went against expectations or outright hurt me and I spent ages trying to get over it. Even when someone did apologize, I held on to things. I got sick of it.
After a lot of soul-searching, I realized that I simply didn’t want other people’s behavior to have that kind of impact on me. It took a bit of rethinking, but I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even expect apologies any longer. Partly due to, like you say, the apology is kind of a lost art, but mostly due to the fact that my response to any offense, real or no, is something I own. Whether I was justified to be outraged or hurt or not, I had to learn to accept it. And it was hard.
What’s weird about the process is that it’s made me very conscious of the apology. Both in my behvior toward others and those who would apologize toward me. I’ve learned that it’s a very difficult concept to teach. Kids learn, “I’m sorry” very quickly, so I kind of disagree with JFH in his claim that the sorry you feel that way, but I’m not sorry” came out during the 70s/80s. Man, it comes from the womb. As soon as kids realize they can attempt to illicit forgiveness without repurcussion, they’re all over it. Trying to teach that an apology indicates a true feeling of remorse is next to impossible until they reach that realization themselves.
When I was, oh, six or so, we were over at some church friends’ house and I broke a toy that belonged to their youngest child. (It was a rattle, and I dropped it and it busted open enough to release the little rattling bean-thing.) We didn’t tell any of the grownups, but the next day when the mom found the broken toy, she asked her kids — who then told on me. The mom then called my mom and told her I broke it.
The next Sunday morning, my mom made us stop at the store and I had to buy a replacement rattle out of my own money. I thought that was going to be the end of it, until we got to the church building and my mom said, “I want you to take that rattle to Barbara and apologize. Say you’re sorry for breaking the toy AND for not telling her when you did.”
I was PARALYZED with fear. I started crying. (I was quite shy then.) (Shut up.) But I walked up to her and handed her the rattle and sniffled and mumbled “Sorry.”
NOW. Most adults, when faced with an OBVIOUSLY distressed child trying to do the right thing, would simply smile and say, “That’s okay. Thank you.” and send said child on her way. But NO. This lady looked at me and said, “Sorry for what? What are you sorry for?” I (omigod remembering this is making me flush already) stood there, sobbing (IN CHURCH) until my mom stepped up behind me and said, “Say you’re sorry for breaking the rattle.” I spit it out the best I could, and as I turned to sob into my mom’s skirt, I heard Barbara say, “Well, it only cost .25, so I guess it’s okay. Hope you learned your lesson.”
I tell that story to tell you this: It takes EVERY OUNCE of my being to apologize to someone, even when I am 110% at fault. I *know* I did wrong, I *know* I have to apologize, but I. . .can’t. I become that 6-year-old girl again, standing in the aisle of a church building, sobbing. I’ve gotten a lot better at it, mostly from therapy, a lot from growing up, but still. I have to work at it.
Lisa — Oh, it’s hard. It’s so hard. And, sometimes, like with this lady in your story, the person to whom you apologize acts ungracious about it. I mean, in the Doc The Lesbian Homeschooler situation, she basically threw my apology back in my face. She never did accept it. So …. that can be very demotivating, to say the least. I spent an entire DAY reading around those homeschooling blogs, seeing what they were saying about me, and FORCING myself to consider if they was any truth to what they said. It sucked. IT SUCKED. And if I’d given that apology to Doc’s face and she’d acted in person the way she did online, I would have been hard pressed NOT to punch her, which I think — I think — negates an apology. Just sayin.
NF — You went into moderation again! You MUST stop being so offensive!
But you said:
//This “IF†business usually works best among people who really know and like each other, because then already understand that it was all a horrible mistake and let’s just forgive it and get right. The IF is least offensive when it is least necessary.//
I think you’re so right. When there’s already a context for it, people may be more willing to accept it. Still, I think it’s best to try to get rid of the “if” altogether and say what you suggested: “I’m sorry THAT I offended you. I certainly didn’t mean to, but I clearly did. I’m so sorry.” Something like that. No “if” bomb.
Cullen — You were in moderation with NF. I don’t know why.
I totally relate to this:
//What’s weird about the process is that it’s made me very conscious of the apology. Both in my behvior toward others and those who would apologize toward me.//
I’m very conscious of it as well. I’ve had a tendency in my life — not proud of it — to keep a running tab of “People Who Owe Me Apologies.” This is no bueno. As you grow older and hopefully a little wiser, you realize you just HAVE to stop keeping that tally. It will make you crazy. I’m like you in that there are times when it just takes me AGES to get over something someone has done to me. It’s embarrassing almost — how much I can still hurt about something long after I think I should STOP hurting about it.
If someone seeks forgiveness, BOOM, I’m ready to give it instantly, but when they don’t? Yikes. Hard. Doubly hard. Because then you’re carrying a burden of hurt over what was done AND a burden of hurt over the fact that they’re not sorry. I’m STILL feeling that way right now about the man who outed my blog to people at Maybe Church — and, uhm, that was 6 months ago, to show you just HOW LONG I can go on with something in my head. But there’s the betrayal of what he did and then there’s the hurt from fact that, despite all attempts for months on end now, he will not reconcile or even speak to me
Honestly? I wanna punch him. I don’t even care about an apology so much anymore if I could just have ONE SECOND to lay him flat. But my response is my responsibility, as you say. So, okay: I’m OWNING the fact that I want to punch him. I wanna break my hand on his face. Fine. It’s true. I’m a horrible person.
Something I wonder is this, though: Is it better to live in a place where you believe apologies will happen or better to live in a place where you believe they WON’T? In the first place, you’re likely to have your hopes dashed a lot; in the second place, you’re just likely to become cynical.
That balance is hard for me, you know?
Oh, I am cynical. I am firmly in that second camp. Heck, I own real estate there.
I’m not sure if it’s better, but I hate thinking about the things I expect other people to do. So I just don’t it any longer.
The upside is that I have often been pleasantly surprised.
Cullen — Yeah. I don’t know if I “expect” so much anymore, but I “hope.” I think there’s a difference. Although, I may be blowing smoke up my own butt here.
Have you seen this post at Ricki’s about the Ask vs. Guess cultures?
Not only is it fascinating itself, but I think it goes a long way toward explaining some different people’s feelings about apologies. I mean, there are a lot of dynamics at play, but when you factor in this theory as well, things start to make a little more sense.
For example, an Ask person is probably more likely offend someone, but perhaps equally more likely to apologize. A Guess person, acting under social mores that may or may not be common, could offend and not realize it.
I’ll chime in on this one. I’m easily offended. I know this about myself (finally). I read way too much into what people say. I’m still unable to remember my dad’s sage advice “you’d worry less what people think about you, if you realized how seldom they do”. So like Cullen, I don’t really expect much in the way of apologies from others. If something bothers me enough, and it’s someone with whom I need or want to have continued contact with, I buck up and have a chat and say “I’m sure it’s not what you intended but I was hurt/offended, etc.)” It’s amazing how often when I do this I find the person really didn’t mean to offend, I just took it the wrong way. On the counter side my apologies when I’m the offender are always very specifically worded. “I AM sorry I offended you. It was not my intention. Please forgive me. Let’s talk it through so that I don’t offend again.” Seems to work for me. This may sound like I’m minimizing the pain that can come from being offended. Don’t get me wrong. Some people have done some nasty horrible things to me that I am still not over. But I have reached out to them, to try and mend, when they ignore or reject, I let it go and leave the hurt on the doorstep.
Cullen – The “I’m sorry you feel that way”, in my opinion, is quite different than the nonchalant “I sorry” that kids learn early on. The latter usually is a hopeful statement that the offended person will accept the apology and move on, the former has MUCH more meaning. “I’m sorry you feel that way” is the ultimate in the “if you were offended/hurt/disappointed” apology. It makes no pretense of being a real apology; it is a statement that says: YOU have the problem, not ME.
Classic Assertiveness Training scenario:
X: Can I borrow your car this weekend, I know you’re not going to be using it.
Y: No, I’m not comfortable with loaning you the car.
X: Come on, you’re not using it, and I’m a good driver with insurance. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t loan me the car.
Y: I’M SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY, but I’m not comfortable about loaning out my car.
See… the phrase “I’m sorry” has ZERO meaning, “Y” is not sorry nor is truly asking forgiveness. It’s merely a pleasantry mean to cushion the blow of a “No!”. Not much different than a sarcastic “Thank you” or “Please”
Solomon said “Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.” The “if†stems from his pride; he just couldn’t be wrong. His pride is what kept him from making an appropriate apology. In his mind he’s right and no force of the web was going to tell him otherwise. If Kevin was a wise person he would not have pursued the idea of being right so fervently. Kevin finds his value in being right whether he is or not. He is too blind to see that his actions, in this case his incessant need to prove a point, create a divide and repel people from him. Think of how different the thread would have flowed if Kevin would have made an appropriate apology and agreed to disagree on the humor point.
Lisa – your story breaks my heart. Childhood is so innocent and that lady was horrible to you.
Hey, someone’s got to moderate my big mouth, and judging from past experience, it sure ain’t me. 😛
Lisa – what a horrible thing to do to a six-year old! It goes to what CV said later about forgiveness. Sometimes it’s hard to apologize because it’s hard to forgive, and to truly apologize is to be vulnerable. Barbara took advantage and that’s dreadful.
Forgiveness requires a certain openness to grace. The counterpoint to the “if” bomb is “That’s all right.” If it was all right, why apologize at all? But if you say, “I forgive you,” the faux-apologizer may take umbrage, because the words automatically show that they were in the wrong. They jump right back into the wrong by choosing to be insulted instead of forgiven.
Instead we get half-apologies on one side, and excuses instead of forgiveness on the other, all to keep from being hurt again. “O Adam’s sons, how cleverly do you shield yourselves from all that would do you good!”
Tracey – dear friend! You are not a horrible person. You’re a person. There’s a natural reaction (and not really unhelpful) to protect yourself from harm. And getting angry is part of life. Rest assured that we still think well of you. Besides, many of us wanted to line up for Dunk the Outer, only we’d have been throwing baseballs at him and not the little target. You may be the one running the booth, but since you’re the one directly affected how could any of us hold it against you?
I agree with Cullen. I’ve always thought that the hardest thing about forgiveness – giving up the initiative, putting it all in the other person’s hands – is the great power in it, because then it’s no longer up to you to tote around the wrong. If that person decides to hold onto it instead of forgiving you, then they have the burden by themselves. It quickly becomes intolerable. The grace in repentance and forgiveness flows both ways.
Thank you, Brian.
And totally off-topic: I’ve had, um, issues (as we all probably have had) with my parents “misremembering” incidents from my childhood. My mother, especially, tends to belittle what, to me, was traumatic at the time and still is in my memory. It’s not malicious by any means — she just remembers things as adult would, and I remember them as a child would.
But this incident? She remembers it EXACTLY as I do. She and I were playing with my nephew once and he had a rattle similar to the one I had to replace. My brother jokingly said, “You better not break that, Lisa! You don’t want to have to buy me another one!” I kind of laughed and my mom quietly said, “I felt horrible that I made you apologize to her. I just wanted you to learn a lesson about being careful with other people’s things, and she ruined it.”
Carry on.
Lisa, you’re story was heart wrenching. I stood in you shoes as I read it. If the old biddy (that’s how I pictured her)was reacting in a loving way, she should have gotten down on your level and told you “it wasn’t a good thing to do………but I forgive you.” Oh the scars we leave with our tongues.
CV — //“I AM sorry I offended you. It was not my intention. Please forgive me. Let’s talk it through so that I don’t offend again.â€//
I think that last sentence is great, actually. The whole thing is great, but I think you’d really make headway with that last sentence.
Lisa — Grrrrrr. I hate that Barbara. I wanna punch her, too. “Hope you learned your lesson.”
Ka-POW-OW-OW-OWWWW!
But I have no latent anger issues. I don’t.
And, you know, I have the same issue of parents “misremembering.” Mainly my mom as well. The times in my life I’ve tried to raise past issues with her in order to work through them, she’s invariably said, “Oh, Tracey. That didn’t happen. You need to change your perception.” Uhm, yeah. She will flat-out deny incidents that my siblings and I remember quite well. So what are you going to do? We just don’t have those conversations anymore.
NF — So when the Kevster offered his “if” bomb, we all needed to chime in and say, “I forgive you!” and freak him out. 😉
Ohh! Come back, Kevin! Mulligan! I want another chance!
JFH — Sorry, you were in moderation with your comment #11.
Cullen — I haven’t seen that post. I will have to check it out.
@JFH: I’m not sure I agree that the “I’m sorry you feel that way …” doesn’t mean anything. For example if my wife and I disagree about something trite, let’s say the best place in town to get ribs, I truly am sorry she feels the way she does. I would much rather her agree with me, but I’m not going to change my opinion just because she feels the way she does. Or another example:
Me: Oldest Child, clean your room.
OC: I don’t want to.
Me: I’m sorry that you don’t want to, but clean your room.
And again, I am sorry. I’d much rather them see my point of view.
Even in your scenario, if someone was pressing me to lend my car and I didn’t want to, I would be sorry that they didn’t see my point of view. There are measures of regret to be certain, but of course I can see how the phrase has become trite. As was the case with Kevin’s use.
In the Army (I’m sure you had this in the Air Force too, but for the benefit of those reading along), when you are doing your marching drills (drill and ceremony), you have Preparatory Commands and Commands of Execution. The Prep Command, as the name implies, lets you know that the command is coming and the Command of Execution means that you have to execute the command. In many ways, the “I’m sorry you feel that way” or “Sorry if I offended you” has become the preparatory command for the non-apology apology. My bigger point is that it’s not always the case though.
And by the “much rather see my point of view” I don’t mean that I want to force or cajole them to it, I regret that we have a difference of opinion.
The “If Bomb”–that’s a great term for it. One got dropped on me pretty early into a roommate situation and I had a feeling things were not going to get better from there. They didn’t; they got way, way worse. I’m glad I got away from that person and try to keep a “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” attitude about the whole thing.
Asking for forgiveness and giving forgiveness are big old messes of vulnerability, aren’t they? My blogfriend Amy G. wrote two posts not too long ago about the same thing–and she talked about our humanity as well.
‘Fly raised an interesting point about how careful we have to be even when accepting an apology. So is saying, “We’re cool now,” O.K.?
P.S. Tracey, my mom mis-remembers the same way. It took a while for me to figure that out.
It’s nice, feeling right. Especially when you can do it all the time. I wish I could.
I think you’re right about the deterioration of the apology in our society. I think people are afraid to admit they’ve done anything wrong, and in a lot of cases, unfortunately, they’re right to be scared– admission of wrong-doing can lead to a lot of nasty results, especially in the workplace.
But in private life, people should be able to look each other in the eye and say, “I’m sorry.” It’s a great way to avoid being an asshole.
Kate P — I don’t know about the “We’re cool now” angle. I think it has to be considered on a case-by-case basis, depending on the person and the offense involved.
roo — You’re so right about the workplace thing. It’s scary. It’s as if in the workplace, people can’t be human; they’re professionals after all.
Hello!
I know I’m frequently wrong, and usually I have to admit to this after I’ve clearly lost my temper. I can’t blame anyone but myself, but I find this happens OFTEN when I am completely overwhelmed and have no way to “escape” the situation. That stinks! But, I must be honest. Life in a pressure cooker brings out what I really am, and it isn’t pretty. 🙂
What I really don’t get is why this fellow stuck around when it became obvious that the conversation wasn’t going anywhere and everyone was getting upset. I could see myself (if I thought that the joke was genuinely hilarous, bud didn’t want to apologize) just saying “whatever” and then not checking back for replies. Just leaving it alone.
Since this happened, I have gotten horrid “anonymous” comments on my obviously disabled son’s blog. I am glad for comment moderation, though it does disrupt the flow of conversation. I think at least you and your readers can defend yourselves in type pretty well… though the stuff I’m not “publishing,” it could be a lot worse…
I hope this person realizes what he is saying to a defenseless teenager is a sin against God and humankindness.
This is a great topic for discussion. I hope you don’t mind if I add a question in….
How do we teach our children to apologize?
I admit that I struggle with this. Especially knowing that in the end, it’s a heart issue. I’ve been trying to teach my kids that if you’re going to say “I’m sorry,” that you need to mean that you’re willing to make a change about yourself and not just offer up words that may not mean anything.
Wow, did I miss a lot. I just spent the past hour or so catching up on all the reading I missed here. I’d read your original post, Tracey, about the emailed jokes and the most recent one, and fully intended to go back and respond after I’d done whatever it was I had to do at the moment, and then, of course, I forgot, because I am going senile. Now I wish I’d stuck around longer.
My two cents on your original post? I just delete most forwarded jokes and things from people. I find the people that send a lot of forwarded stuff don’t send anything I want to read, whereas the people that never forward stuff – if they send me something, I’ll check it out, because it’s such a rare occurrance. So I’d just delete everything this relative sends. But. The last joke? Not funny. At all. And Kevin? He made my blood boil.
I will stop there, because everyone else (of the SYC) said it all, multiple times, and said it well.
On the topic of apologies…ohhhh, so hard. I’ve got a relative who does the whole “If” thing, and in her case, it always comes across as a non-apology. Not an “I didn’t mean to” but a “I don’t know what you’re so upset about but I’ll say these apologetic sounding words because I think that’s all you need to hear.” So frustrating. So frustrating to try to explain WHY that doesn’t work. I think I’m looking for some indication that she understands how her actions hurt/upset me (or anyone)…that she really gets it and really IS sorry…but I don’t feel like it’s there. It’s more like “let’s just move past this uncomfortable moment, okay?”
And I’m probably a lot like her. I think…opening myself up to the hurt I’ve caused someone with my own words or actions is such a flood of painful things – remorse, guilt, sorrow, embarrassment, annoyance, anger, fear – that I really just want to get it over with so I can shut that door quickly. But to do that is to gloss over it, over whatever I’ve done or said that I need to apologize for, and diminishes how I’ve made the other person feel. It’s all about me, and in an apology, it shouldn’t be. It should be all about the other person. Or…(can’t think in straight lines, sorry) it should be about putting the other person’s feelings first.
(And as a side note, I’ll be happy to supply jalapeno cheddar and anything else you want at the next Circling of the Yurts!)
RE: “We’re cool now” is probably much like the “if bomb” – least offensive when least necessary. If my best friend accidentally crosses a line while joking with me, I may not formally say “I forgive you,” because if I say “No problem” or “It’s cool,” he knows what I mean. Ah, the art of friendship.
Sorry, Cullen, but I don’t agree with you…
I almost rewrote the previous sentence, because it’s hypocritical, but didn’t to make a point… “Sorry” like “Please” in many instances is a merely a fake politeness appendage. When directed at the 2nd person in the specific cases we’re discussing, you’re not asking for forgiveness from that person, you are actually hinting that they are in the wrong (much like the IF bomb) for challenging your decision or order. It’s no different than the old “Please, Don’t Smoke” signs popular in the 70s and 80s until we actually created laws to prevent that behavior in offices and, especially, hospitals. The please is supposed to soften the blow of the order, but it’s fake because the sign really means “YOU CAN’T SMOKE IN THIS AREA”.
Back to Tracey’s original point, if you say “I’m sorry” are you asking for forgiveness or just expressing sorrow that the other person is ‘too stupid, uninformed, nor realizing that I have power over them’ to understand that what I am saying is the final law…. And yes I meant to be that harsh in that clause in the last sentence because what you actually mean when you use “sorry” in the instances that you, Cullen, and I are discussing.
That’s bull JFH, because that’s not what I mean at all. That’s your perception of the meaning. I fully believe that saying “sorry” can be that expression of regret as much as it can be a plea for forgiveness. I can’t see how, if you care about a person, you won’t feel regret when you and the person/people you care about don’t see eye-to-eye. At least in certain instances. That’s not arrogance, that’s remorse. And it has nothing to do with their intelligence or capacity for understanding. People disagree. Just like you and I are now.
The kind of “sorry” Kevin used and Tracey illustrated, is arrogance. Because he was using “sorry” as a rhetorical device, not to express honest regret.
Here’s another good example of what I’m talking about:
Have you seen the show on the History Channel, Pawn Stars? People come into a big pawn shop in Vegas and try and sell stuff. Sometimes the items are very valuable, sometimes not. Sometimes, the valuable items wind up meaning more to the person who brought them in and they decide to keep, but more often, they are not offered as much as they want for the item. Sometimes, they turn down the deal. In those cases, the owner says, “Sorry we couldn’t come to a deal.”
So yeah, the pawn shop owner totally wants the other guy to come around to his point of view, but he’s sorry that the exchange could not be made. He wants to have that item in his shop and regrets that he couldn’t offer more money for it, or that the owner wasn’t willing to let it go for less money.
Is that arrogance? I don’t think so. It’s a degree of sorrow. Sorry’s not an absolute – it’s an expression of a spectrum of remorse.
Kevin was clearly commenting here in bad faith – you kinda could get that from the get-go. His behavior was rude and boorish – and then his sudden back-tracking when Tracey returned to the thread – came off as insincere and again, rude. We’ve all been on the Internet for a long time. Lisa said “my kingdom for a troll” in that thread, and that pretty much sums it up. He was stirring the pot, because he found a “perverse pleasure” in it. That’s commenting in bad faith. Maybe some other bloggers don’t see it that way, and they see their entire blog as an opportunity to stir the pot – that’s fine, different strokes … but he was on a power trip, and when he was called on it, he got nasty.
There’s that moment in Walk the Line where a woman comes up to Reese Witherspoon in the hardware store and tells that she is disgusted that she has gotten a divorce – and it’s so amazing to watch Witherspoon’s response, because it’s a random attack, from a stranger – it would be appropriate to say, “None of your damn business, lady” – but instead, she says, “I am sorry I let you down, ma’am.”
It’s one of the most interesting and heartfelt examples of an apology – and really shows a sense of grace and humility.
It kind of takes the “I’m sorry if I offended you” structure, but not the way Withersppon plays it. She did what she did, because life is messy sometimes – yet at the same time, she really is sorry she let the woman down. It comes from a sincere place.
Apologies have a scent, like other pieces of human behavior do. You can smell it when it’s coming from a sincere place.
I also think there are degrees of apology. “Sorry we can’t come to a deal” seems pretty straightforward, although there are levels of self-interest involved – but that makes sense, when it comes to business.
Roo really hit the nail on the head when she mentioned the workplace issue. Apologies are hard, no matter which way you slice it – people want to protect their egos, it’s human – but when you get into that power structure, it becomes really challenging.
What has happened for me – with apologies – is it opens up space for a relationship to actually occur. When I’m the one apologizing, or when I’m being apologized to and it’s for real …
It’s a really intimate thing to do, and I can see why people avoid it and try to weasel out of it with semantic tricks.
sheila — You know, you hit on something huge for me. The intimacy of it. It can be too much for people. That’s no excuse, in my opinion, but it IS an intimate act.
When I think of the situation with Outing Person, I think there’s a level of gender politics, too. Meaning, I think it’s harder for a man to apologize to a woman. MB was saying this to me recently — that it’s probably easier for a man to apologize to another man than to apologize to a woman because apologizing to a woman, specially one he’s not married or related to — messes with the gender dynamics of things. Which is a crappy way to say it, but I think there’s something to that. A true apology is an act of humility and …. is it possible that for a man to really apologize to a woman, he feels diminished AND emasculated and so he just ….. can’t?
Help me out, you manly men! I’m not saying a man can’t be humble. Not at ALL. I’m just wondering what that dynamic is like for a man — staring down the prospect of apologizing to a woman. I don’t know how to say it without sounding offensive here.
Okay. I’m wondering if — for a man — the gender of the person to whom they’re apologizing makes a difference in the willingness to apologize. Does that make sense? Am I sounding horribly sexist?
Have you ever been in a situation where you apologized to a woman who was not your wife or some other relative? What was it like? How did it go?
I can’t say that I’ve noticed a difference in apologizing to a man or a woman. For that matter, I’m not conscious of a difference in apologizing to a boss or superior vs. someone I’m in charge of. There may be a difference that I’m not aware of that an observer may see, but it doesn’t feel different to me internally. I feel just as dumb and just as sheepish to everyone.
Gaaah, hit “return” instead of “shift.”
… I was about to say that this may be a reflection of the culture and upbringing I had compared to the culture of the Nevah Evah Church. You’ve mentioned before the oddities of how people related to you and MB as a couple, how they tended to look past you entirely to relate only to MB… and of course the consternation certain people had in dealing with your finer features. Apologies would be complicated for someone stuck in such a mental landscape.
NF — Well, you make a good point. In a patriarchal systems like the FOCers church, women are second-class citizens: cookers of food, cleaners of homes, teachers of children, receivers of penises, bringers of babies, and provokers of all lustful feelings, and therefore, not people to whom one apologizes. I suppose, in this system, if a woman is NOT a given man’s cooker of food, cleaner of home, teacher of children, receiver of penis, and bringer of babies, then she is ONLY — to that man — a provoker of lustful feelings and she owes HIM an apology.
Not that I’m upset or anything. Nooooo.