A question:
Your pastor gets a new car. It’s an expensive, flashy car. Does this bother you?
My sister and I were having this discussion recently because this exact scenario is happening at her church. She mentioned that as someone who tithes to her church, she felt uncomfortable seeing him in this new car; it seemed inappropriate, both to “his station and his age,” were her words.
“On the other hand,” said she, “I don’t want to judge him, but I guess I am.”
Now, my sister’s church is a medium-sized church with 800-1000 people, so one assumes an accompanying medium-sized tithe base. (Well, medium-ish when you consider she used to attend Saddleback — Rick Warren’s church — which has an attendance of about 15,000.)
“So what do you expect him to drive?” I asked my sister.
“Well, I don’t expect him to drive a heap, but something more modest, I guess. Seems a bit showy to me.”
“But is he allowed to do what he wants with his salary?”
“Well, I guess I question the whole financial stewardship of it. Could the tithing that makes his salary be better spent?”
Hm. I don’t know the answer to this and is it even my job to know it?
So at what point does Luther become Liberace, suffering from a severe case of ostentasia? And what do we expect? Is this all just opinion? Or should a pastor be mindful of this when purchasing a new car? “Showiness” is a subjective notion, after all, so one person’s ostentasia may be another person’s normal.
And is it really any of our business?
Any thoughts?
Larry King asked some of these same questions a couple of months ago when he had 4 mega-church pastors on his show. One was completely comfortable having a private jet. Max Lucado said he wasn’t. He said he never expected to make so much from selling books, and finally told the church to stop paying him a salary. Greg Laurie said he wouldn’t own a plane either.
It can be a complicated thing, but I think you can look at their heart, their priorities, and that will tell you whether or not they are being showy or are justified in their purchase.
Well, we never know if the money came from inheritance or he was just really good with his money. I do think God CAN but doesn’t ALWAYS reward his faithful with riches. I heard Rick Warren gives 90% of his salary back ans lives off 10%. We never know what’s in the heart of men.
Personally I don’t want to dictate what my pastor drives, but if his lifestyle went out of control I would wonder where he was getting the money ( read credit cards ) and is that setting a good example.
Paul says something about this in one of his works about accepting money for pastoring. Frankly, on the salary they get for the job they do in small churches, let ’em buy the nice car. Hey, I’m not on call 24×7 like they are.
~Jef
So, does Mrs. Pastor have a French manicure and wear clothes that seem a bit too high end? Maybe the kids have too many video games. Too many nice vacations?
I learned a long time ago that when I spend a lot of time wondering if the pastor and family are spending MY tithing well, it never became God’s.
Sue
So we’re not talking about the Blood, Sweat, and Tears song? Dang.
Yeah, this is actually a really good question. I realized that I’m not settled on the issue. It’s his money, though – as long as he’s being obedient to God, I don’t have a problem with him driving a Porsche. The issue here is that it’s hard for us to accept that driving a Porsche is being obedient to God. Which indicates that we have a concept of the sorts of things God calls us to. The Pope’s pretty rich. How do we feel about that? It’s the same issue, as far as I can tell.
-M@
I’m not sure I understood the “age” part of her comment. Was she implying that he’s getting a flashy sports car as some sort of mid-life crisis purchase? That to me is much less interesting than the “Should a pastor drive a nice car?” question.
-M@
I don’t know why you say you didn’t understand it. Seems like you understand it. 😉 It was a passing comment she made.
But notice that I didn’t ask, “Should a pastor have a mid-life crisis?”
I’m real glad that nobody has suggested that because it’s “our tithes” that we somehow have a say over what it gets spent on. Because the truth is that once we give it to God, it’s God’s like Sue says. So that said, what we are talking about is for the pastor’s sake, not for the sake of “where is my money going”.
I don’t have much to add. Here is one thing though, first off I don’t know him or his situation or his past or any of a number of reasons why buying this Porsche might legitimately be following God, BUT ideally as the pastor of a church he should be very careful about how he uses his money so that he doesn’t raise questions like this. A pastor with a private jet raises questions and doubts. A pastor who gives 90% of his income away generally doesn’t raise doubts.
It just occurred to me though that the person in question should ask the pastor directly.
My whole life is a mid-life crisis!
Alternate question: Should you raise a question if you find out your pastor spends an extra $30 a week on cigarettes? $40 a month on porn sites? $600 a month on a vacation home?
My take: a pastor should be an example of living responsibly, but the congregation shouldn’t hold their tithes over his head. This situation could become an issue assuming the pastor has some sort of accountability within the church or denomination. A member withholding offerings because of this needs to reevaluate what giving to the church is all about.
Good question, Tracey.
A couple thoughts.
First, the Pope is not rich – the Catholic church is. He can’t quit and take any of the stuff lying around the Vatican with him as he walks out the door. I see it as an important difference – surrounded by wealth and opulence, and you own none of it.
Second, between the Catholic clergy’s value of personal poverty and the Puritan’s value of simplicity and frugality, we Americans have been surrounded by an equation of Godliness and meagerness when it comes to personal wealth. We expect pastors to live a somewhat meager lifestyle. Whether or not it’s in the Bible that this HAS to be the way, that’s what we feel in our bones.
Question: How many pastors refrain from smoking and drinking so as “not to cause a brother to stumble”, knowing full well that a biblical case against these two things is weak? We would see that as an honorable and godly thing to refrain from these. Now, what’s different about a Conspicuous Consumption-mobile? Knowing what the almost-ingrained expectations we (society) have of pastors, why draw the line here? Why be willing to potentially “cause a brother to stumble” over a car, but not a beer? A beer can be much more discreet. Less real chance of causing anyone to stumble, but harder to impress the neighbors with a beer. Hmmmmm…
Personal story: I used to work at a major broadcast ministry. Let’s call it “Thru Grace our Insight has Focus” or TGIF for short. Once a month we would take time to pray for the folks who sent us letters asking us pray for them. Each employee would get 4-6 letters, and we would spend time in prayer for these people and their requests. It used to bug me big-time to read these letters that would say something like “I’m sorry I only could send in $10 this month, but I’ve been out of work for 9 months, and money is really tight”. I would look around the beautifully decorated offices (solid oak desks, explosion-in-a-Laura-Ashley-store decor), and think “what are we doing?”.
Did they have a right to spend their money on “nice” offices? Sure. Did it keep on poking me in that “godly=frugal” spot on my brain? Absolutely.
Wouldn’t it bug you if the story of the Widow’s mite ended by telling us that the Pharisees took the money, and used it to add more pure gold thread to their tunic, as the woman walked away in rags?
Sorry this went on so long – I think you hit on a sensitive subject for me.
Hi, I found your blog via Prof Steve’s Defiant Lamb site and have already bloglined it so I’ll read it in future!
This is such a complex issue… one we’ve struggled with over the years as my husband works in a mission agency so most of our income is from personal support. There have been times when we have struggled financially, and others when we have been blessed beyond what we need. Some missionaries believe in absolute frugality, but sometimes that draws attention away from God. It can also make local people point the finger in derogatory ways – surely God can at least provide new clothes for his people? Surely he doesn’t mind if you eat out occasionally or buy good quality meat?
We had an inheritance from my grandmother last year. We haven’t squandered it: some is earmarked for house repairs, some for specific Christian work. But after some prayer and thought we’ve treated ourselves to a new big fridge, some new sofas, a digital camera, some DVDs. Mostly on special offer, none of them extravagant by the world’s terms, but we still found ourselves trying to justify them… yet why should we? My grandmother would have liked us to have comfortable sofas and a good fridge!
So, it seems to me, if the pastor is a good man and is known to be generally responsible, why on earth shouldn’t he drive a flashy car? Perhaps someone gave it to him, perhaps he inherited some money, perhaps he was given a really good deal by a friend… or perhaps he had longed for one all his life, and finally God told him to go ahead and buy one.
BTW I was staggered at your notion of a medium-sized church. To me, between 100 and 200 in the congregation is medium-sized. Over 300 and it’s approaching mega-church. If the pastor doesn’t know each member of the congregation personally, there are too many people; they should be prayerfully considering planting a new church and dividing into two congregations.
Like many others, I don’t think it’s really any of your/our business how he spends his money. That is as much between him and God as how you spend your money is between you and God. However, I do think that you need be careful that you “don’t make it your sin”. I mean, don’t get so caught up in the “what ifs” that you harbor bitterness or gossip. And if it still really bothers you…just ask him where he got the great deal on his new car!? 🙂
*What. Goes. Up. Must. Come. Down. Spinning wheel. Gotta’ go ’round..* DANG IT, M@!!!
“If the pastor doesn’t know each member of the congregation personally, there are too many people; they should be prayerfully considering planting a new church and dividing into two congregations.” Amen, girl.
Listen, y’all, this is REAAAAL simple. We don’t have a right to say what “happens” with our offering once we’ve turned it in. We entrust it to God. He directs it. To that end, and I quote: “The God I serve ain’t short ‘a cash, Mister!”
So when a “Pastor” cheeses on the cover of every one of his monthly mass-mailed newsletters in front of his newly purchased jet, motorcycle, car, house, whatever, I’m apt to be a bit skeptical. Especially when he bellows through the TV that “God can’t bless me if I don’t tithe DIRECTLY TO HIM”.
That said, responsible Pastors would be well advised to live within their means with great consideration of personal needs balanced with the reflection they cast via their actions. Maybe not a Lexus. Maybe say, a really nice Honda or Nissan. Keep it simple. Same goes for the housing and the clothing. I think Christ called us to moderation, not excess. Overflow can be used for a wide variety of godly things. But I’m not the grand poobah of what’s right et al — that’s up to the Pastor himself.
My former Pastor drove a Lexus, wore $2000.00 silk suits in the pulpit every Sunday and lived in a swank house in a nice, nice neighborhood. Coincidentally, all the staff at his church was related to him. They were all wealthy as well. Even more coincidentally, he beat us over the head every Sunday with tithing “laws”. But if you call the church office and ask for explication of their books, you’ll get a very curt refusal. They don’t publish them, never have, never will — well, without a court order.
If something in your spirit says, “This is too much,” check it out. Go to the person and ask them about it. Or do some fact checkin’. “Samaritan’s Purse”, for example does a great job of keeping their books open. If your church doesn’t deal in daylight, support one that does. Easy enough.
Incidentally, all the fuss people made about how much shwag the Baker’s were pulling down in the PTL days may have been just that. Baker embezzled, no doubt, but he apparently didn’t live any better than James Dobson and Pat Robertson. That one was a shocker to me. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. I did see it on “The Eyes of Tammy Faye,” after all.
*Ride a painted pony let the spinning wheel turrrrn.*
Well, sweet Moses! What great comments!
Adam — Just a point of clarification. It wasn’t a Porsche, just to clear that up with everybody! 😉
Rev — Was hoping you’d weigh in here. Thanks.
Prof. Steve — No problem on the length. Good, well-considered points. (“Through Grace our Insight has Focus”– hahahaha!)
Sue — Thanks for sharing your personal experience and insights. You’re right to say that we can’t know HOW a pastor was able to afford such a car. They are myriad ways, I suppose. And, yeah, here in So Cal, I think that size church is medium-ISH. 😉 I don’t like it, either.
I wonder where the balance is between pastoral freedom and pastoral accountability? And I wonder how any church could ever agree on it?
I don’t suppose the Lord will ask us someday what we thought of Pastor Bob’s car. Although He may ask Pastor Bob about it. 😉