I realize I sound church weary on this blog lately. I am church weary, but church weariness does not equate with Jesus weariness. For me, anyway. I’m perfectly capable of separating Jesus from what his church has become. It’s not his fault. If anything, my disappointment with the screwed-up institutional church/corporation/cash cow/Amway meeting makes Jesus more essential to me, more real in contrast to the myriad ways we’ve managed to muck up the church that is meant to be his hands and ruined the reputation we bear when we carry the name “Christian.”
Jesus has staked his very reputation on us and — ta daaaa! — everyone hates us and Jesus, too.
So, honestly, he’s either God with a much huger agenda than we can possibly see or know, or yes, he’s patently insane. (Stealing from C.S.) Why put yourself through that unless there’s something much bigger at work? I mean, I hate it when people hate me. And I really hate it when people hate me (or judge me) based on a misrepresentation of who I am (phone call for “Outing” Person). Does Jesus feel any different?
Further contributing to my church weariness are things like the blog post below, an example of the musings of the senior pastor of Maybe Church. Like everyone we encountered at Maybe Church, Whitey (as MB and I called him) was — clearly — a “really fun guy.” He wore ill-fitting Hawaiian shirts and nothing proves you’re a “fun” Christian more than ill-fitting Hawaiian shirts. I mean, actual fun wouldn’t prove it. No. To FOCers, any actual fun is probably just good ol’ fashioned sin, Crackie, and you need to check your hearts and repent, mkay? Whitey was Ivy-league educated (unlike most FOC pastors), and I might have been impressed by this fact if his sermons weren’t always dumbed down to accommodate the 11 year olds forced to sit in the audience because there was no Sunday school for kids 6th grade and above. He sounded exactly like John Lithgow except for the never-making-me-laugh part. MB and I wrote notes during his sermons like 3rd graders with ADD because his sermons were about as intellectually challenging as the hidden pictures in Highlights Magazine. (Actually, I would have much preferred that.) He was dry, rather pedantic. Then again, I know that no one will live up to the intellect and passion of our longtime pastor, now retired. No one has.
But what comes across even more in Whitey’s writing than it did in person is his condescension. I didn’t necessarily get that vibe from him in person, but reading this post, I definitely do. It’s indicative of the superiority FOC pastors are groomed to believe they possess. I find it so offensive. He has a whole series of these on his blog from earlier this year, all with the title “Bleatings from the Sheep.”
I could pinpoint certain things, but I want to see if others zero in on the same things I did.
(I know it’s terrible blog etiquette to copy and paste a whole post with no link, but you know I have my reasons. Under normal circumstances, I would never do this, but this place is abusive, subtly so, which makes it more dangerous, and it’s just ruining thousands of people’s lives. Thank God MB and I were not sucked in.)
Here it is:
Bleatings from the Sheep: Respect for the People
It is one thing to be charged with leading the church in the stead of Christ, it is another to do it with humility. One of the temptations of being the primary voice of preaching is to begin to think of the people I serve as resistant. I become more focused on their sins than their graces. I begin to think I know a lot and they do not. Bonhoeffer says that pastors are not called to be in partnership with the devil, as accusers of the brothers. That hits home!
Here is another one of those simple comments that was packed with meaning.
We were in the middle of some major changes in the by-laws of the church. I had preached through the biblical reasons and had held some Q and A sessions with people. But I started to hear second hand reports that some were resistant.
I was tempted to harsh judgments on one hand, and to self-doubt on the other. I wondered why sheep were so stupid. I wondered if I was called to be a shepherd — maybe I should quit, or find another flock that would show greater respect for me.
A few wiser men in the church (and there is a lesson in itself — these were laymen, without my education and calling, but respected for godliness) suggested we slow down the process. They suggested that people need time to absorb change.
I yielded to them reluctantly. I wanted to see this as an authority and submission issue. After all, the case was clear from Scripture and I was called to bring Scripture to bear on people’s lives. They said people wanted to believe the Bible and follow it but they had heard other teaching over the years that was different than mine and they needed to weigh it out. I assured them that the other teaching was wrong. They agreed, but insisted we be patient.
We ended up with some more time for people to discuss these ideas. Some of these key leaders went out among the people and asked questions and listened and served folks. The process took longer than expected and I was growing impatient, discouraged, angry.
Then a couple I greatly loved came to see me. They told me they had concerns with this new direction. They told me they had weighed it out and agreed with what I taught but they still had reservations. They wanted to talk. We did, at length. I labored at listening, not defending. I sought to get into their heads and hearts. My counselors words shaped my responses.
What was interesting was at the end of the conversation, they said they would support this direction. They still had questions, but they would follow this plan. Then they parted with these words, “Thank you for respecting us.”
This couple was in their 70’s and had seen lots of pastoral leadership over the years. Those words were not throw away words. They meant it. It seemed that had experienced pastoral oversight that was disrespectful, impatient, overbearing, dismissive of the people. In that conversation, they sensed I wanted to hear their concerns and would not dismiss them. They were respected.
It became a good conversation with others in oversight — do people sense we respect them? love them? cherish them? or do they think I treat them like idiots? obstacles? resistant?
How easy it is to think of the people I serve as obstacles to what God wants to do — and to treat them with disrespect. They are not obstacles. They are God’s redeemed people, my brothers and sisters, as slow to change as I am. Does God drive his sheep — does God use a cattle prod? I wanted to serve them as my Savior served me — with respect for their persons. Thank God for another sheep bleating!
Oh, how I miss him.
Holy crap.
He needs to read I Timothy and Titus, where the Apostle Paul says churches need to appoint ELDERS, not an ELDER. A congregation shouldn’t be run by one man, all willy-nilly, and be subject to his “bringing Scripture to bear on people’s lives.” What does that even MEAN?
Condescension and narcisscism appear to go hand-in-hand.
what a flippin idiot he is.
Any post in which one is trying to establish one’s humility should not include the sentence “these were laymen – without my education or calling”.
The last couple of paragraphs are asking decent questions, I think. But you’re right – condescension reigns throughout the rest. He truly does think he’s better, and above, his “sheep,” doesn’t he?
I’m still trying to get my head around the “wisdom” of calling anything “bleatings.” The mental image of “bleating sheep” is so insulting, I don’t know whether to cringe or laugh. Somehow the whole sheep metaphor seems loving when God uses it in scripture, but from this guy it just sounds belittling. Which, I suspect, is his not-so-subconscious intent.
Katie — Bingo! That phrase is just so offensive. And I agree with you that he asks some decent questions, but there is such hubris and condescension peeking through the rest of it that it completely turns me off. Yuck.
RT — The whole title is laughable to me. Doesn’t he see the disconnect there at all? “Bleatings from the Sheep: Respect for the People” Can’t he see that that title conveys contempt — kinda the opposite of respect?
Lisa — You went into moderation. I don’t know why. Because you’re such a drunken slattern, I guess.
The thing is, there ARE no elders at the FOC. It’s a pyramid structure within the organization at large with one ridiculous baldheaded man at the top. Same thing with the individual churches. The pastors are ego-driven lords presiding over their little fiefdoms.
“Bringing Scripture to bear on people’s lives.” Yeah. No clue. That’s similar to another FOC mantra: “Preaching the Gospel to yourself in all situations.”
What? I still don’t get that.
I read this a couple of times. Is it the tone? B/c I see a guy admitting to a series of faults and realizing he was wrong, but phrasing it very badly. And not really apologizing.
But- I have no experience with people who just up and start their own churches without any apparent oversight, so I could be missing something significant.
What strikes me, though, is the amount of space these folks are occupying in your mind. To be honest, I’m a little concerned.
RT – I think “sheep” is comforting and relaxing coming from God because He is obviously and immeasurably greater than we; because we are already convinced of His love and tender care. Some fellow schlub calling us “sheep” sounds more like putting on airs, like he has aspirations to be a cow or pig someday.
Sal — Well, we just see it differently, I guess. That’s what these FOC pastors do. They pseudo admit to pseudo sins. They don’t apologize for anything genuine. They can’t without compromising their power.
As far as “the amount of space” they’re occupying in my mind, I’m sorry you feel concerned, but I don’t think there’s really any need to be. I happen to have an interest — a spiritual interest and concern — about groups that border on the cultic, which the FOC does. This family of churches has support from some very prominent figures in the evangelical Christian world. So in that sense, I’m concerned about the normalizing or mainstreaming of a group that needs to be and should be marginalized. I mean, when a church can know of a molestation of a child, go to the parents of the victim and present them with a “forgiveness opportunity,” then pressure them not to press charges, something is seriously wrong. I mean, should we be concerned?
Sometimes distressing things take up space in my mind for very good reasons. The reasons this occupies me don’t solely focus on me. I’m out of there. It didn’t “take.” Didn’t stick. (Thank God.) I’m more concerned for everyone still caught in the web of this place. Someone I once knew and cared for has been completely altered as a person because of involvement with this place. For a few reasons, I take their myriad abuses — subtle and not so subtle — personally.
After being exposed to this place, I would think something was wrong with me if I didn’t think about it.
It’s amazing how much he reveals here – he thinks he’s revealing something else (how willing he is to not be perfect and listen) – but what he’s actually revealing is something entirely different. It sounds to me, frankly, that he would rather be the pastor in a church that had no pesky people in it. His first response is to defend and resist. This is his FIRST response. now I get it: he’s showing his human-ness here, but I would also say he is showing how unfit he is for his “calling”. It’s an act. It’s a struggle for him to respect people. He starts from a stance of defensiveness and then has to be broken down. Again, that’s a very human thing, but I think it doesn’t speak well for him as a leader of men and women.
Sheep?
Can he even hear himself?
People of the Lie, peeps, people of the Lie.
And the Hawaiian shirt image is killing me!!! next thing you know, there will be balloon animals and rainbow suspenders.
“How easily I think of other people as obstacles” he says, not realizing what a terribly alarming sociopathic statement that is.
Most normal people don’t go around thinking of other people as “obstacles”, sir.
// Someone I once knew and cared for has been completely altered as a person because of involvement with this place. For a few reasons, I take their myriad abuses — subtle and not so subtle — personally.//
Very VERY well said. This isn’t just some random curiosity or bad feelings that have outstayed their welcome. This church has “gotten” someone you care for. Seems like your passion and interest is extremely called-for. Once you know what an organization like this can do – and you see it first-hand – it is very difficult (sometimes impossible) to “let it go”.
Like I said to you Tracey – while there’s still life, there’s still hope. That this person can break free. Maybe I’m too optimistic but I’ve seen people “snap” out of C0$ after THIRTY YEARS of indoctrination – and these people pay huge prices for walking away – similar to Maybe Church. Disconnection, loss of social life entirely, being “shunned” – and also feeling like you are now going to go straight to Hell, because that is what you have been taught.
But I haven’t given up hope. People DO get out. It’s so painful, lives are ruined by organizations such as these. Ruined entirely.
So no, I am not disposed to look kindly or forgivingly on this pastor’s “faux” honesty when all I see are red flags, and his so-called humble admittance that he sees most people as obstacles.
Sorry. You do NOT get to pass Go on that one, dude.
I have no idea why I put quotation marks around the word FAUX in that comment above. Now THAT was uncalled-for. Remove the quotation marks in your mind, please. Thank you.
Sheila,
I’m kind of okay with the last paragraph (minus the last sentence), but only because I’m assuming that it’s mostly in the context of this “new direction” he was trying to lead in.
I think that people who are visionary types have a tendency to “get the vision” and then want to run with it, and not realize that some people just need more time to get on board. These people then get run over, because the vision person is like, “Hey, I’ve got this vision. It’s from God. It’s where God’s leading us. How do you not get that? Let’s go!” And as the vision person prays about it or talks about it with others, it becomes, “God, I’m trying to do this vision you’ve given me, but all these people that won’t get with the program are such obstacles right now.”
My guess from knowing some of those visionary types, is that this happens so fast, and they’re so hyped up on the vision, that they don’t even notice that they’ve started to see God’s people as obstacles. So in that sense, I think it’s healthy that he’s finally coming to see that that’s what he’s been doing.
The thing is, I think this means that the confession and repentance of pastors is best done in private or one-on-one with another pastor-type person, one-on-one with the person who’s been wronged, or perhaps more publicly (like in a sermon or congregational meeting or something) if its warranted.
A blog where people know who you are but don’t have the benefit of actual human interaction is probably not the best forum.
sheila — /there will be balloon animals and rainbow suspenders./
Hahahahahahaha. Now, the FOC would never do that, would they????
/“How easily I think of other people as obstacles†he says, not realizing what a terribly alarming sociopathic statement that is.
Most normal people don’t go around thinking of other people as “obstaclesâ€, sir. /
I’m howling.
But you’re so right. These people DON’T get a pass from me — because of what happened to me, because of what’s happening to Outing Person, and because of all the thinly veiled insanity that’s expected to be treated as normalcy.
No. NO. I’ll speak out against this place to anyone who will listen.
Sorry, Katie. You went into moderation.
I would imagine the larger context here is that he himself did not have a “vision,” but that the Powers That Be above him were giving him a vision and expected him to get compliance from all the pugnacious sheep.
Tracey – hahaha Now where would I have gotten the idea that balloon animals would be involved? Hmmmmm.
Hmmmmmmmmm …… I don’t know ….. hahahahahahaha.
Also, sorry, but I’ve read a lot of this guy’s writings, and I find a lot of FALSE humility here. Forgive me for being cynical (or hell, don’t forgive me, what do I care), but I don’t buy a word of it. He nearly DRIPS with self-congratulatory humility – which is even worse than outright pride.
“See how much I question myself? See how much I am willing to question?”
Sorry. If anyone normal in everyday conversation said to me, casually, that he felt that “most people were obstacles”, I would have red flags flying through my vision and think: “Note to self. Stay far away from that FREAK.” I don’t care if you’re hyped up on your new found spiritual discovery (and again: I don’t buy it with this guy – this is a POSE.) I may not know everything, but I know language and I know human behavior. Of this I am sure. If you are so hyped up on your spiritual discovery that you find other people to be “obstacles”, then you are a dictator-in-training.
Wouldn’t it be a perfect world if you didn’t have these pathetic 70 year old parishioners voicing their concerns? Wouldn’t it be great if everyone could be as PERFECT and holy and enthusiastic as you are?
I’ll pass. But I WILL take one of those balloon animals on my way out, kay thanks.
(This is a classic cult technique, by the way – making a huge show of your unworthiness – it almost becomes competitive in a peer pressure situation: “I am MORE unworthy than you …” “Oh yeah? Let me list mY sins” and this can be quite hypnotic when the leader joins in with this pseudo-confessional activity – making the flock, ie: SHEEP, want to work even harder to make their “Leader” proud of them. It’s another way the Leader controls them: by showing how “human” he is.)
Brainwashing 101.
Sorry. Guys like this go up my arse sideways.
Also, wow, what a shock – people want to be respected.
You’re just discovering that now, dumbass?
sheila — Are you talking about Whitey or good ol’ CJ? For clarity’s sake, the person I’m referencing is the senior pastor of the church we attended, not the head of the whole FOC she-bang. I’m not sure if you mean you’ve read his (Whitey’s) writings or Mr. Head FOC (CJ’s) writings.
Not that it really matters. They tend to be interchangeable, although I will say that Whitey has a seminary education whereas Baldy does not.
FOCers are taught that they “need to be a joy to their pastors.” Hm. Woulda flunked out on that one, I’ll bet. When I showed up, I was basically a plague — I guess — to someone I used to know and date. Not a joy. That’s me. Tracey Nottajoy.
Sal — You see, I can’t NOT think about this organization. Because I still live and breathe. I still feel. I’m not numb. I saw with my very own eyes how someone I once knew has basically had his life kidnapped and his mind brainwashed into nothingness. The spark he had when I knew him is gone. Gone. He’s a vapor of the person I once knew. You have no idea how desperately sad it is to me.
sheila — /But I WILL take one of those balloon animals on my way out, kay thanks./
/Guys like this go up my arse sideways. /
Hahahahahaha. You are full of piss and vinegar today. I love it.
Whitey or Baldy. hahahahaha!! In digging around originally, when Maybe Church began to loom large in your life, I was mainly drawn into the dark anti-matter abyss that was (is) Baldy, but in my recent reconnaissance missions (meaningless to anyone but you or me) I have read Whitey’s writing as well. You’re right, there is a homogenized feel to much of it – not even just the language, but how it is used. How it is used to express humility, mainly – which seems to be one of their big calling cards. “See how sinful I am, and see how openly I can admit it.”
UGH.
“They said people wanted to believe the Bible and follow it but they had heard other teaching over the years that was different than mine”…
Mmm… that was the big red flag to me. I’m rather bitter about church right now, but I can recognize that almost all pastors I’ve ever dealt with recognize that they can be wrong a time or two and I think they are generally good people.
And my way doesn’t always match Scripture. And yes, I’m ok with Jesus as well. He’s the Almighty and more than just some buddy who favours me over everyone else. Unfortunately my being friends with Jesus doesn’t mean that I hear Him chatting with me over my coffee all the time. I am saved only because I see that the Bible says “whosoever.” I have never had a super super suuuper experience in which I hear God’s voice audibly or needed to tell five people a “word from God” or anything like that. I used to think something was wrong with me until I realized that about 99 times out of 100, people were making crap up.
The one percent goes into the “maybe” basket, yk??
Mrs. C — I’ll never forget the dude years ago who got up in front of our entire church to share a “word from the Lord.”
Uhm, a penis featured prominently.
After that, everyone who talked about it — which was EVERYONE — called it The Penis Prophecy.
The pastor busted the dude down for The Penis Prophecy, but still, good times. Good times.
BTW, Tracey, I disagree with Sal. I honestly think you are doing God’s work in exposing these churches’ practices. Like Sheila, I fear this environment is beginning to be cult-like. The moment any congregation cedes their authority AND responsibility to another person who we all know based on Jesus’ teaching, is flawed, fallible and sinful, WE, as the community of Christians, have a problem.
I literally (and I mean that word) feel sick that so many on this message board have given up on organized church based on your experiences. I just wish there was something I could do to entice you to find a church, like I have found, that meets my spiritual needs.
Bwa ha haaa! The Penis Prophecy. Ohh, good grief.
Tracey,
No, that’s clearer: anti-FOC PSA’s b/c they’re cultish and dangerous are not the same thing as them setting up camp in your head.
NOT defending them- the whole minister personality-driven church phenom gives me the willies because the emphasis seems so wrong. Was just worried about you and sorry that you’ve had so many bad experiences.
JFH — Well, I’m not sure what you’re saying. I’m either exposing church practices or I’m causing people to give up organized church because of my experiences. Sounds a bit like you’re saying (or suggesting) both things.
It seems to me that people generally leave their own churches and look elsewhere based on their own experiences, not something they read on a blog that happened to someone else.
Tracey – FWIW, I’ve never been encouraged to ditch the Catholic Church based on what you say about FOC or Maybe Church or any of the rest of the them. If what we’ve done to ourselves and the world doesn’t send me to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, nothing will. 😉 It’s all about the Jesus, and the only one of His erring servants that can keep me from Him, is the one writing this comment. You keep right on calling these cultoids on their BS. SUCH AS (warning, ranty bit ahead):
FOCers are taught that they “need to be a joy to their pastors.â€
WTF?!? How is that remotely Biblical? Christ the Shepherd was all about the lame, halt, stumbling, lost sheep… It was even flung at him as an accusation by the FOC of his day – “You eat with wine-drinkers and sinners!” And all day long these people beseiged Him wherever He went. His response was not to turn up His nose – and He of all people had the best right to do so, being God and all – NO, He pitied them ‘for they were like sheep without a shepherd,’ and He ministered and preached and then died for them all. And to this day we still beseige Him with our petitions and worries and squabbles and sins and failings and stubborn conviction that we ARE the shizzle, especially after we’ve decided to start tithing or serving in the parish or what-have-you.
He puts up with all of us; so where does FOC get off telling the flock to shape up and stop being such a burden to THEM? Jesus Christ dies for us, so THEY can’t be bothered to be even remotely pleasant or human while they pastor us? THIS really turns my stomach.
NF — Thanks.
And I liked your ranty bit. 😉
Another thing: Isn’t Jesus the Shepherd? Yes, I know “pastor” means shepherd, but a pastor needs to look as his “shepherd” position as a strictly subcontracting gig. He’s not The Guy. He’s Sub-Guy. The “sheep” aren’t HIS; they’re Jesus’.
I don’t like his sense of ownership of the sheep.
It’s interesting to me that the focus for the FOCers (and, yes, I say “Fockers” to myself) is on the shepherd/sheep relationship. There’s not much focus on other aspects of our relationship with Christ.
When I read the Bible, I find the relationship ascends rather dramatically: potter/clay, shepherd/sheep, master/servant, father/child, bridegroom/bride.
That last one rarely gets talked about — not in all its ramifications — and certainly not in the FOC.
Shepherd/sheep, shepherd/sheep.
You’re much easier to wrangle if that’s all you believe you are.
Baaaaaaaaaaaa.
One of the dangers is that when someone like you speaks out – others who may agree with you but are more partisan-based, in terms of their religion – get protective, or nervous – that you speaking the truth will make others turn away. That is just as much of a cultic mindset as the more openly cultic mindset of FoC. I’m with Nightfly. Nothing you write here would touch my own faith. Why would it?
I get very nervous when people don’t like others to speak out “against” what they perceive to be as their “side” – They want to maintain a united front, and not wash the dirty laundry in public. I read a lot of black-women-empowerment blogs (BWE, for those in the know) – not because it’s my fight personally, but because I really respect what they are doing. They are telling the truth about their community as they see it – and they are branded as traitorous left and right by those who want to “keep it in the family” or those who think that by speaking your own truth, you are just helping the enemy, or giving weapons to those who want to destroy you. I disagree with that entirely. I admire these black female bloggers enormously for having the courage to stand up against what is a so-called united front and telling it like they see it.
Cults maintain their power via secrecy, plain and simple. As long as people can find out what they want to know easily via the Internet, cults are in a lose-lose situation – and I think it is a great service what you are doing here (and what Kris is doing on her site). Those whose faith needs a united front despite the abuses behind the scenes are already in a losing battle – and they know it. They need UNITY, they CRAVE it. This is akin to Whitey feeling upset because his parishioners are “obstacles”.
Truth-tellers are never congratulated by those who want to maintain a semblance of the status quo. But for what reason, I ask??? What are they so afraid of?
If you have faith, then what does it matter that someone is criticizing a branch of your faith that is abusive? So odd.
And yeah – WTF with the ” be a joy to their pastors” nonsense. It seems to me that that puts the parishioners focus TOTALLY in the wrong place – and also just leaves the entire landscape open for abuse of that power.
And I personally don’t see anyone here right now giving up on their religion or their faith based on what you wrote here. Not in the slightest. I see a lot of kindred spirits who wrestle with similar things – OR people who are horrified by what you have described and are in total sympathy.
// shepherd/sheep, shepherd/sheep. You’re much easier to wrangle if that’s all you believe you are.//
Language is SO important in showing how people think.
I was at a school function last night for second graders, and the gospel reading was about when Jesus spoke about how the shepherd would leave his 99 sheep to go after the lost one and take care of its wounds.
The priest was standing there, with about 50 second graders surrounding him, as he gave his homily (sermon) about forgiveness, and the thing that stuck most in my mind was when he said, “God is still looking for you.” (Made me think of you, Tracey.)
No cattle prods involved there.
Oh, what a sweet thing to say. That’s a good pastor.
Geez, Did I word my last post poorly (well, the sentence structure was completely correct, but I didn’t mean to write that)… “YOUR” in this case was meant to mean “y’all’s” experience with the subject of the referred to pronoun being the “many of this message board”.
I had no intention to mean that YOUR experiences have turned any other people away from organized religion. Sheila stated it perfectly when she says:
“I see a lot of kindred spirits who wrestle with similar things – OR people who are horrified by what you have described and are in total sympathy.”
I see that too and I truly am sorry for any grief or frustration I might have caused.
In fact, YOUR (and I mean YOU ALL’S) experiences have been a blessing to me as an Elder in my church. Thank y’all for that.