Below is a really interesting video I found linked in the comments of a blog I read regularly now — about a certain “family of churches” and its corruption and abuses and subtle use of group think to produce compliance.
Conformity is huge within this “family of churches.” My personal experience was that one person was much like another. Apart from physical differences — and even with that, there was conformity in clothing — one person’s personality and conversation was much like the next. They spouted what sounded like sales pitches. The words may have differed, but the attitudes were identical. Even in our first weeks there, I could sense ….. something. The tip of an iceberg of rigidity under all the smooth pleasant surfaces. I’m still reeling a bit from how bizarre the whole thing was and I’m still surprised and a little embarrassed at how much the ordeal with Outing Person has hurt me.
I knew Outing Person years ago, as I’ve said, and it pains me — literally pains me — to see that his personality seems to have done a complete 180, from the joyful, alive, warm person I once knew to the dour, listless, cold man he seems to be today. How has he changed so much in front of his loved ones without comment from them? Unless they, too, are changing simultaneously? If My Beloved had done a complete 180 in his behavior and personality I would say something, for God’s sake, unless I’d somehow lost the ability to notice. Does Outing Person’s family say nothing because they’re also changing, because they’ve also lost discernment? If I can see it, why can’t they? The implications here are actually terrifying to me.
From what I’ve learned of this “family of churches” over the last several months, I can’t help but lay some — probably most — of the blame for his transformation at its feet. He has conformed to the group. Says the same things others say. Forfeited his personality in order to be “obedient” to man-made rules. His individuality, which once shone so brightly, has been assimilated into the Borg of this church. In my brief and bizarre interactions with him at Maybe Church — and my heart is sick to say this — I saw a man in bondage to rules and legalism. He was once SO free. SO loving. It was all I could do not to shake him or smack him and cry, “What’s happened? What’s HAPPENED TO YOU??” Literally, pippa, I grieve over this. Grieve. Over the months since then, I have found myself randomly weeping over the alteration in this man. I’m not talking about the physical changes that people go through as they get older. Who cares about that? It’s not substantive. I’m talking about the fact that his personality and his demeanor were completely unrecognizable, completely OTHER to me. I actually found it frightening.
I’ll tell you my theory: The Antichrist? That whole thing? It will start with the church itself smoothing the way for that, sloooowy morphing truth into truthiness until the people in the pews end up believing something entirely different from what they started with. It’s happening even now, within this organization, but it’s so subtle, SO subtle, that unless you stubbornly and obnoxiously cling to your independent thinking skills — your GOD-GIVEN ability to reason and analyze — you will succumb.
The man I knew years ago would not have succumbed.
So, yes, it grieves me. I weep over it. I wish I didn’t, but I do.
And it starts with conformity, with the subtle pressure of group think.
Watch this video on an experiment in conformity and see what I mean.
Wow – I had heard about that conformity experiment (it was referenced in the book I read recently about the Stanford Prison Experiment – another experiment that really looked at conformity, and group think) – but to see it in action … Amazing. The numbers don’t lie. People don’t want to believe the evidence and think that THEY would ALWAYS resist the group – but people who feel that just can’t have thought about it so deeply. Cults and brainwashing techniques are very subtle, very intelligent.
Creepy, man.
I can only hope that Outing Person eventually “snaps”. There is always hope as long as he is still alive. I also wonder about his loved ones – I know that my family would DEFINITELY speak if I suddenly started spouting something that didn’t “sound like Sheila”. You know? Like – “what’s going on with you?”
Perhaps he had himself cut those ties – not wanting any reminders of people who “knew him when”. And you are included in that.
It’s a tragedy, really. I’m so sorry, Tracey.
See, this would never happen to me because, as my wife says, “You think you’re always right”.
My response has always been, “Of course, I THINK I’m right, EVERYONE THINKS they are right otherwise they wouldn’t have an opinion or answer.” Obviously, that is just philosophical tautology, but it get to the root of the personality that can be swayed by a cult.
Many people (most??) are not very firm in their convictions (be they values or factual knowledge). It makes them susceptible to cult-like proselytizing. Now that I am in my older years, and have been proven wrong, I’ve adjusted my thinking. My mantra: I HATE BEING WRONG! … but when I am I’ll admit it. If pressed these days, I’ll give a percentage of of me being right and I’ll take all comers when it comes to any betting.
I remember reading about this the same time I read about the Stanford Prison Experiment, too. I like to think that I’d be able to resist the groupthink in a situation like this, but I know that my mentality bends naturally toward conformity and the military has really beaten it into me over time.
You think that in a cult or cult-like religion, the people want to believe in something. That makes is a little easier to understand. The Stanford Prison Experiment was just too shocking!
My wife’s Mormon and they have pretty high expectations of their members. But that’s the difference, they don’t preach damnation if you don’t “do what you’re supposed to” or something like that. But I know lots of folks looking in who believe those pressures are brainwashing. And, to some degree, it is. I mean, in that you conform to their way of life. But it relies on a member’s desire to live that way.
Ugh. It’s just so hard. There’s such a fine line between legitimacy and creepiness. I feel for you.
I’m sorry, Tracey. I know how much his transformation has pained you.
It’s like losing someone to meth addiction, or heroin addiction. You have to let go of the person you knew.
So sorry. 🙁
sheila — I guess I see it like this: The person I knew was the person I knew. Actually, I want to HANG ONTO the memory of that person — because he did exist — otherwise the whole thing feels like a total loss.
Does that make sense? No, he’s not that person anymore, that’s totally true, but that other guy, better guy, did exist once. I guess ….. I don’t know. There’s too much loss and disappointment in life as it is. I want to cling to what’s good in my memories. Present day guy is a different person.
I know that’s true. It’s horrible to accept, but I know it’s true.
It makes total sense.
It’s like – someone who develops a mental illness, or a drug addiction – or like my grandmother who has Alzheimer’s. It is tragic – it’s like you lose them bit by bit – but I MUST hold on to the memory of my beloved Grandmother when she was really with us. I love her now, too – of course – but I have had to let the other one go … but we all remember and love her and remember.
Sometimes I think for people like Outed Person – it is those people who REMEMBER him as he was are almost worse – you don’t want to have people around to remind you.
It’s a real crack in the psyche.
But of course: he was who he was back then, and it was REAL. I believe he’s still in there. There is ALWAYS hope when people are involved in cults.
Sad, though.
I’m sorry for your loss–I’m sorry that you grieve. Stuff like this seems incomprehensible, doesn’t it? Where does the “real person” you know go?
Cullen — /There’s such a fine line between legitimacy and creepiness./
Yep.
sheila — /But of course: he was who he was back then, and it was REAL. I believe he’s still in there. There is ALWAYS hope when people are involved in cults./
Yeah. I hope so.
Kate P — Thanks. It’s more I grieve FOR him, you know? For the person he was.
sheila — On the whole family thing: Since his entire immediate family — wife, kids — also attends this church, I just wonder if they simply don’t say anything because they’re just as altered as he is? I mean, can the addict help another addict kick his addiction?
To me, it all suggests they’ve changed just as much as he is.
Tracey – yes, they probably approve of the change, then. That’s awful. So it’s like you are the remaining witness to who he once was. And that must not stand!!
// Many people (most??) are not very firm in their convictions (be they values or factual knowledge). It makes them susceptible to cult-like proselytizing//
JFH – that’s actually an incorrect assumption. People who are susceptible to cults run the gamut and are, statistically, MORE firm in convictions than others – which is the very thing that makes them susceptible. It’s not wishy-washyness that is susceptible – it is the desire for absolute certainty. There are certain life-circumstances (death in family, divorce, moving away to college for the first time) that make people susceptible – but those are outside circumstances. It is the person who NEEDS certainty who will be drawn to any group that claims they have the answer. There are many people who who distrust certainty on the face of it – those are the people who really are impervious to brainwashing. Studies have been done about such people – we can learn a lot from them.
In general, people who are in cults are people who are PRONE to being firm in their convictions – which is why they NEED an organization that VALIDATES their need for answers.
A rigid tree is more likely to snap in the wind. A tree that has more give to it can survive a hurricane.
Just need to correct that assumption which comes up a lot in any conversation about brainwashing and cults. “I wouldn’t be susceptible!”
Don’t be so sure. Your very need to be RIGHT may be your weak point. Just sayin’. That’s the weak spot – that is the type of target that most cults look for.
sheila — Yeah. Good point. It’s not necessarily JUST the wishy-washy who are susceptible.
“Maybe Church” and its organization specializes in planting churches in areas that are already quite well-churched, areas that don’t actually NEED another church. But, again, they’re the only ones “getting church right” according to them. This kind of church planting is what they call “missions” which is basically retarded. They don’t “reach the unreached”; they steal the disillusioned from the church down the street or the church around the corner.
That was us. The disillusioned. When they set themselves up as following a “true, Gospel-centered paradigm,” people like MB and me, unhappy with our flaky, willy-nilly church, ARE susceptible. “Oh, these guys are SOLID. This is what we need. A firmer foundation,” blah blah.
I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. I’m saying that Maybe Church at Large deliberately plays into that mindset. They are the alternative to the more free-form Charismatic-type church that MB and I had attended for years and they set themselves up — this is all subliminal, not spoken from the pulpit — as a kind of refuge for people who are sick of some of the excesses and ridiculousness of The Church at Large. I mean, when we told Perky Bob the church we’d attended for years (a well-known but more charismatic evangelical group of churches), I could literally see the light go on in his eyes. “Aha! The perfect catch here!”
We were their prime demographic. We were EXACTLY the kind of people Maybe Church wants. They steal people who are solid BUT DISILLUSIONED with “church.” That’s why they put their churches where they put them.
So your point is well-taken. We weren’t wishy-washy. We were vulnerable because we’d been through the ringer of total disillusionment with the church.
Perfect targets for them.
PERFECT.
Like I said to you, tracey, I may not know much, but I know cults! Your explanation of this church’s workings and how it targets a specific demographic is right on target. “Seekers”, in general, are looking for “answers” and “solutions”. It’s a specific kind of mindset – and add to that disillusionment, it’s a perfect storm for cult recruitment. Similar to cults setting up on college campuses, and using as a front a Bible Study group – knowing that kids away from home for the first time are yearning for CERTAINTY – It’s not that they are wishy-washy, it is that they are unmoored from the familiar – and so are even MORE prone to grasping onto someone who says they have the answer.
People involved in cults, generally, have high IQs. It’s an interesting statistic (Margaret Singer writes a lot about that) – they are logic-minded, and practical. They don’t THINK they’re getting involved in a cult. They think they have found the answer. And cults are masterful at hiding their true natures, revealing it bit by bit, sucking people in.
This “other church” of Tracey’s may not be a cult (although I believe it is) – but the fact that it hides what it really is – AND that the people involved seem to speak in another language and have serious personality-snaps – shows the results of how they operate. By stealth.
Once you’re that far in, it’s hard to get out.
Thanks for the correction, Sheila, It makes perfect sense, now. E.g:
“I’m almost always right when it comes to the answer to questions about “X” subject(s), how can I be wrong when it comes to this new group that accepts me as I am?”
Still (get ready for my excusing myself for being wrong, because, as I’ve said “I HATE BEING WRONG), I still think I’m right because…
Eh, I got nothin’… Dang… Hey, does this mean I’m less likely to join a cult?
JFH – hahahaha I think you’re safe.
We all think we’re right about things, as you said. It’s those who MUST be right, and who must have a group to validate their right-ness … Cults look for those triggers, and exploit them.
sheila — /and who must have a group to validate their right-ness/
Yeah. I think that’s huge. But I think at any given time ANY one of us could be susceptible. Resistance could be low for any number of reasons, as I think you already mentioned. Sometimes, damn, you just want a group to validate you, for God’s sake. I mean, look at all of us on the Internet wanting people to validate us.
THE INTERNET IS A CULT!!!! AAHHHHHH!!!
With this church, there’s a real adherence to man-made rules and to elevating those rules to the level of biblical truth. It’s like “Calm down already about homeschooling, Slappy. It’s a personal choice, not a biblical mandate, mkay?”
Honestly, I thought the people at Maybe Church were a buncha drips. Truly a gloomy bunch — being validated in their gloominess.
Wowsy woo.
I just think it’s really important to not EVER say “that’s THEM, that could never happen to me”. POWs, cult members, people in strange Amway like groups – it’s way too easy to write these people off as stupid or gullible, and it just pisses me off. It doesn’t take into account the mold-ability of the human mind – which we can see in experiment after experiment after experiment (the above clip being just one example).
Stockholm Syndrome, Patty Hearst – how do these things occur? Because the people involved are “not firm in their convictions” somehow? Less intelligent?
Nope. It’s because the human mind is MADE to be flexible and certain groups know how to exploit that.
Tracey – in a way, it sounds like this Other Church wants to have everyone be on some imposed flat-line, emotionally.
The pressure is BEHAVIORAL. It’s reaaaaaaallly insidious!!!
Although they SAY it’s scriptural – it’s really man-made and behavioral.
Hmmm, Sheila, gotta call you on one point… You may know cults, but I know POWs (at least American POWs post WWII), literally. Many in Vietnam and in Korea were in complete isolation for long periods of time from fellow soldiers/sailors/airmen yet still were not “brain-washed”. In fact, only three officers ever “broke” in Vietnam (Ironically, one of them from my dad’s squadron) and accepted early release in exchange for denouncing the US and the war effort… And they did this because they were weak, not because they actually believed what they said. It’s an urban legend and/or a gross stereotype that military members could be brainwashed into communist symphonists.
Is it that, as officers, we are trained to abide by the “Code of Conduct” that we are resistant to the Stockholm Syndrome? Nah, it’s that we have been trained to maintain our values independent of the situation. Bottom line, I bow to you when it comes to how people can be supportable to cults, I just don’t buy that ANYONE can be exploited.
Okay, that’s putting words in your mouth and I’m sure you didn’t imply that last statement I made, but I think it might be a genetic thing, with certain life experiences that makes some a susceptible cultist.
So again, my initial assessment was WAY off the mark… That said, I will never believe that anymore than a small percentage of the public can be cultists.
In the words of Dennis Miller, Of course… I could be wrong.
I’m not sure that you’re right about it being a small percentage, JFH. There’s a real phenomenon at play here. If it helps, think of it outside of the term “cult” and consider a group of kids… teenagers work best… think of how any one kid in that group, alone, tends to behave in a particular way, but get the whole bunch together and a pack mentality emerges, with its own behavior and personality. They will do things that no one individual would dream of on their own. It’s so hard to stand out when you’re in a group like that – so hard even to feel that you’re being pulled in a particular direction. Later, when asked “why did you do X to Y?” or what have you, the reply from all of them will probably be some variation of “I don’t know.” And here’s the thing of it – they will not be lying. On some level they really don’t know.
Now, I have personal experience with some of the college “Bible Study” outreaches from my student days. One of the groups was affiliated with Boston Church of Christ. I didn’t fall for it, but I did go to some of their meetings, because I was just rediscovering my faith and I didn’t know jack doodle about stuff like this. It could be that the other friends I already had were a stronger influence and gave me an anchor, to be less easily tugged into the group think, but there was a tug. And when I was a little lapsed heathen, there was definitely a tug to continue in that vein with my fellow lapsed heathen buddies.
The truth is, was I being a rock-ribbed individual, or was I just more influenced by the other group mentality?
To take another example, think of advertising. That is much more an effort at exploiting peer pressure and groupthink than it is an appeal to an individual. It is almost entirely an appeal based on Being a Cool Person, or In the Know… not just “buy this ’cause it’s great stuff.” The implication is that all these hot-lookers, hipsters, smart folks, etc. already use and enjoy this product, as you can see on your screen…. JOIN THEM. We’re shown how great the stuff is by how great the other customers are; who wouldn’t want to be like them? Even ad campaigns based on “being an outsider” have that current in them – be an outsider, a nonconformist, someone who knows for themself – just like this appealing-looking chap confidently striking out in a new direction!
(Yeah, “themself” is an ugly, ugly word. I am sad. Can’t do better right now.)
This sort of thing is everywhere, and usually (more or less) benign; often helpful, when it makes one resistant to foolishness. By belonging to the pack, we have the security and protection of the pack, and that’s invaluable against an enemy. It can be exploited against us, however, and in very subtle ways.
JFH – I didn’t say everyone. In my original comment, I spoke of the small percentage of people who seem impervious to persuasion – and the studies that have been done on such people. There should be more. We can learn from such people. The random people (not who you would expect sometimes) who CANNOT be bent or molded. Those who maintain their SELVES in the midst of high-stress high-pressure situations. There were a couple of people in the Stanford Prison Experiment who, unaccountably, did not cave – fascinating – the interviews with these men are even more fascinating. Because sometimes they didn’t even realize why – it’s like the Oskar Schindlers of the world – this is the type of power that these people ultimately can have. But on some level it does remain quite mysterious. It is similar to POWs who didn’t crack or teenagers who resist peer pressure when you think they would cave, and etc. and etc.
But this is a WAY smaller percentage than those susceptible to peer pressure and groupthink.
And I see this all the time in conversations about cults/mind control/brainwashing – a resistance to identifying with those iN the situation. It’s a resistance – “why are those people so gullible?” “Just put ME in that situation, I’D never crack” – and it’s really not the case, and also disrespectful to the actual kind of pressure that can go on in these groups. A misunderstanding of how vulnerable the mind really is. I think of the people who moved to Guyana following Jim Jones – who didn’t think they were in a cult – they believed they were creating a Utopia. Now you could roll your eyes and say YOU would never crack – and maybe you wouldn’t in that particular situation – but there are other situations where you MIGHT. It’s important to acknowledge that, I feel really strongly about it.
Nightfly – Advertising is another awesome example, you’re right.
And I remember your stories about the college campus outreach – very insightful stuff. These cults are SMART about the mind. They do not reach out at random – they PICK. Tory Christman, one of the most vocal “defectors” from the Church of Tom Croooze, always says, “You don’t join a cult – the cult finds YOU.”
I don’t buy it, NF… Again, like Sheila’s opinion and respect yours (Why I’ve never bookmarked your site is an embarrassment to me), but I think you extend small anecdotal samples to the population at large. If your view is true we would see Jim Jones type cults all over America and the world. Unless you consider the evangelical movement in the US a “cult” (which I don’t for the majority of cases outside the “family of churches”), I question your premise.
The example of advertising is a classic example. Take a look at the opinion polls of advertising effectiveness (payed for by advertising agencies). Yes, advertising effects positive vs. negative attitudes to a given product but that has never translated into sales when the products are truly equal in value.
For example the Apple commercials in the early 80s far outpolled the IBM PC commercials… so why didn’t Macs take over PCs in this arena. The Mac was a better product and had better advertising, but quality and advertising doesn’t sell a product alone.
So back to the cultists, they must believe in the product outside advertising and objective analysis. It HAS to be the group think mind set that drives cultism….
What do ya’ll think of this theory?
JFH – of course they believe in the product. Of course people in cults believe in the product. That’s kind of the point. Nobody thinks they’re in a cult. They think they’re in a group that “has the answer”, whatever the answer may be.
It’s a relationship – the bait-and-switch approach, which is well documented – a gradual immersion, if you will.
It’s not a sudden snap – the cult gets you to agree, bit by bit, as they hook you in. They get you to make compromises on small things, so that they can then work up to the big. It’s a subtler situation than you are describing.
You win, girl… I guess I believed in the humanity of simple truths, e.g. life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but obviously that can be subverted by the right “salesman”
JFH – it really can!
Also, Jeez, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Still believe in life, liberty, pursuit of happiness for God’s sake (what, I don’t believe in those things?) – but understand that the mind is a very flexible and sometimes vulnerable thing. Be realistic about it. That’s all.
JFH — Well, hm. If we look to scripture, isn’t Satan referred to as the deceiver? Didn’t Jesus himself say to take care that no man deceive you, etc.? Didn’t he say, too, that “False Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible”?
And I don’t think that’s saying it’s not possible. I think it’s saying that where it IS possible, it WILL happen.
I’m just wondering why Jesus would bother to give these warnings himself if it weren’t possible? I’m throwing this out there because I think the very fact that the Bible uses this language proves our susceptibility to deceit in ALL its forms. Be on guard for it because it’s there. Of course, believe in “the humanity of simple truths”! One simple truth being: We’re all susceptible.
During my time at Maybe Church — and I’ve talked with Sheila at length about this in emails, on the phone — there were times I felt myself slipping, times I wanted to just say “okay, okay, okay.” There is definitely a lure to this particular community and I wanted to FIT IN SOMEWHERE.
That’s a huge tug on anyone’s heart.
If you were to walk into one of these churches, JFH, without knowing anything of my experience — which I still haven’t told in detail or to its conclusion — you would likely find nothing off whatsoever. People would be friendly. They would “preach the Gospel.” Maybe invite you out. You would sense a very strong community. Because it IS. You could walk in and listen to a sermon and literally NOT KNOW that words that are being used that you understand to mean ONE thing mean something ELSE in this church’s lingo. So so so SO sneaky. The practice of the deconstruction of language is huge. Go click around. Read some of this organization’s blogs. See if you find anything overtly wrong. You very well MAY NOT.
When words don’t mean what you think they mean anymore — and you don’t know it — you could easily be toast.
And I mean more the “universal” you here. I’m not saying you definitely would be toast, but I’m not saying you wouldn’t either. 😉
/I guess I believed in the humanity of simple truths, e.g. life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but obviously that can be subverted by the right “salesmanâ€/
As Sheila said, I don’t think you need to give up on these notions because cults exist. Just because there are people who might want to impede your pursuit of happiness doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pursue it. Just because there are people who want to take your liberty doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
JFH!! Come on!! You’re essentially doing the very thing you said you wouldn’t do by saying that. You’re giving up on your convictions!!
YOU ARE NOW IN MY CULT.
Here’s the thing I keep going to back any time I question the legitimacy of an organization or religion: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
And even that can be misleading because you have to dig deep to get to the truth of an organization’s “fruit.” I bet many folks think that the Co$-ers do a lot of good outreach work. But you have to look at what that work entails and what strings are attached to it.
I keep going back to the LDS example, but those folks have wonderful relief works. And they don’t proselytize when providing aid – they keep their missionary work and the relief works separate. It’s something I always had a problem with when I was growing up Baptist. Every story about someone out always seemed to have strings. Something like, “I told them I’d give ’em a meal if they’d come to church with me,” or, “I told them I’d give them a ride to church!”
I know that a lot of those people are well-intentioned, but the nature of “help” means a lot. It’s easy to be suspicious of someone who says you have to grab on to their “meter” to get their help, but it’s a bit tougher to be a skeptic when you’re in a position like Fly was in.
I’m rambling. I guess I’m kind of like Fox Mulder. I want to believe, but I can’t help feeling like someone’s always around the corner waiting to yell “Gotcha!”
Tracey – I would like to be in your cult. May I? Your cult is called The Club of Curious Friends, and I would like to be a member.
Oops. I think I already am.
Like I mentioned before: it is the more RIGID mentalities that are MORE susceptible – more prone to SNAPPING, to giving up, giving in …
The fact that you were able to recognize that something was being WORKED ON YOU in those services – that the words being said were actually a cloak for something else (one of the main harbingers of a cult) is truly amazing. I am so glad you are writing about it.
We should never underestimate the power of the group. Which is really the whole point of your original post. Not only underestimate it, but respect it. Not dismiss it, like, “God, I could NEVER fall for that.”
YOU ARE NOW IN MY CULT.
Hahahahahaha! But seriously, I second Sheila here… it’s fantastic that you felt them trying to get at you and stamped on their sorry green fire like Puddleglum. I’m sorry it hurt you so badly – as I recall it hurt him too. I’m in your cult, even if there isn’t any cult to be in.
JFH – first, thanks for your kind words. Second, I think I understand what you’re saying, and you’re right, most people aren’t in cults. That’s why I said, if it helps, to leave aside the word “cult” for just a minute. Most people aren’t in cults… but they’re in the Kiwanis, they have various circles of friends, they’re often in a legit church, the Coffee Achievers, what-have-you. In those various circles you see very different aspects of them – they adapt what one might call their “pure” self to assume their customary role in that group. My voice here in this blog is different than the voice I have on my hockey team or in my church; even different in some ways than my voice on my own blog. My role is different. I was never told my varous roles; I found them.
I think where I made my mistake was in making these things sound identical, and I definitely don’t mean that, at all. It’s a scale. Most of us are reliably in the shallow end, and like swimmers on a beach, we can still stand up and thus stand out. But there’s a riptide… it can carry even very strong swimmers out to the depths, where it’s very hard to find yourself, or be found. And you’re right that most of us don’t find ourselves out to sea. We learn how to avoid that dangerous undercurrent; that’s the love of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness you mentioned. (Thank God for all of them! He came so that we could have life in abundance.)
Where it gets cultish is that bait-and-switch, where they are the ones who seem to be offering those things. Most people in the shallows, already enjoying themselves, aren’t going to want to swim all the way out there, but the people already swept to sea? Any port in a storm, as the saying goes… and once they get in, the cult goes to work, and after a while it becomes easier to believe in THEM instead of Christ. They’re the real objects of adoration there. It makes it hard to break away because it feels like a betrayal of the ones who on some level gave that person the stability and welcome they didn’t find elsewhere.
Of course, even in the shallow end, you get folks like your Mac users… who often take great individual pride out of their shared decision to be Mac users. A lot of that marketing you mention caters to that smart outsider mindset; it’s niche marketing and thus not entirely surprising that it results in a small market share. It does, however, result in a fiercely LOYAL market share. That’s the game.
Also, with the bait-and-switch approach, the key is its gradual nature. The image of the frog sitting in water that gets hotter and hotter – when will he know to jump out before he burns himself to death? Cults (and cult-ISH groups) know how to do this in a gradual manner so that the change is imperceptible at first.
There are some very good books about the psychology of all of this, which really helps to explain a lot of it.
Margaret Singer’s book Cults in our Midst – and the great book called Snapping (about “sudden personality change” – one of the biggest clues that you or a loved one may be in a cult).
Like Nightfly so perceptively stated – we all modify our roles and voices depending on the GROUP we are in. We are social beings. That is one of the best parts of us – but cults EXPLOIT that which is our best quality. Who we are with our boyfriend is different from who we are at work, or who we are with the guy who pumps our gas, whatever. The group here DOES influence all of us (those of us who aren’t totally anti-social, that is) – we are able to subtly conduct ourselves in different ways appropriate to the situation.
And it is that capability in all of us – that is vulnerable to this kind of group-think attack, whether you call it a cult or not.
Anyway, it’s good to be aware of this stuff. I have had some close calls myself.
Now, of course, I basically TRY to be recruited by the Church o’ ScienTOMogy, because I’m so fascinated by this whole process … but that’s a whole other story.
JFH — I hope you know I was teasing you a bit at the end of my last comment there.
Question for everyone:
The Sudden Yurt Commune — Commune or CULT???
Anyhoo.
NF — Your comment #33 is brilliant. Funny you should mention the Puddleglum analogy. I was just saying that PRECISE thing to MB about this whole thing the other day. As in “Where is the Puddleglum to stamp on the fire here so it’s good and stinky and everyone snaps out of it??”
I pray for that. I really do. I’m ANGRY at this organization because I feel like it’s RUINED someone I once knew and cared for. I’m hurt by him, but I am FURIOUS at the organization. Really, JFH, if you could have known the man I knew and compare him to the man he is now, you would never stopped being shocked. Just the way he spoke — those rote, groupthink mantras that came out of his mouth — I attribute the majority of it to this church. (Of course, he spoke more to MB that he would to me because MB forced the issue and …. because I am a woman. Yup. The male/female issues in this church are BUH-ZARRE.)
But because I knew him, I think I can say with some fair degree of certainty that he chose this church in good faith, thinking he was choosing something better than wherever he’d been before.
I don’t know. People WANT to think the best of a church, I think. They go in predisposed, for the most part, to think that. Or …. what am I trying to say …. to believe that the “godly” people around them are telling them the truth, are being open, not hiding anything. Christians, I think, tend to expect better behavior from other Christians. (I no longer do necessarily.) I don’t know that people seeking a new church and walking into this particular one would be as wary as MB and I were. And that wariness? I think it SAVED us. I do. Had we not had that, we’d be little boiled frogs in that pot right now. But if you walk in all gung ho and ready for a new church and, wow, everyone is SO MUCH FRIENDLIER than anyplace you’ve ever been, and they CARE so much about families and being Gospel-centered, you may not necessarily notice how hot it’s getting in that pot. You WANT to think the best. It’s CHURCH. It’s your fellow CHRISTIANS.
I think a huge part of what happens with this church is the love-bombing approach. ‘Member Perky Bob? It didn’t work for us, but I imagine it works for lots of people. Mostly, he was way too perky for me and I found it irrational to want to go to lunch with us when the dude had known us for five minutes and didn’t remember our names.
But this church as a whole is THRIVING, so something is at work here. Something has captivated these THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of people and still holds them in thrall.
I dunno. That douche Satan totally masquerades as an angel of light, doesn’t he?
WAKE UP, CHURCHIES!
IT’S A BIG GIANT POT OF BOILED FROGS!!
We’re not a cult until we start actively recruiting outsiders and make them do our laundry.
Cullen – oh wait. We’re not allowed to do that???
Damn!
Cullen — Then we will totally be a cult.
And I’m okay with that.
Crisp linens forgives plenty.
Sheila – I remember you talking about that trip to LA. Talk about stories. Whoa nellie. Now I have this image of you standing outside, stomping indignantly on the pavement, demanding to be let into the cult; while Der Crooze and his sailor-suit cronies peek out from behind the curtains hoping you’ll go away.
That douche Satan totally masquerades as an angel of light, doesn’t he?
I know. Satan, knock it off already, ya douche.
We have to be some kind of a crazy ultra-cult to convince anyone to handle my hockey-related stank laundry. Talk about snapping out of it. We can always quote that verse about the fragrance of salvation being deadly vapor to those who are already perishing.
The Laundry Yurt-Cult Commune… gosh. You are all pure win.
We shall all be brainwashed in official Sudden Yurtâ„¢ linens!
Enough with the â„¢ Trace. We get it. You figured out how to use it.
NF — Yeah. If Satan’s not a douche, I don’t know WHO is.
Well, uh, that’s not entirely true ……
Nightfly – hahahaha Yeah, even if I really wanted in, they wouldn’t have me now! “Why does that lady keep coming around????”