In the midst of trying to write some posts about camp, I find myself distracted.
Joey, my friend who thinks I have demons, wants to meet with me. Next week.
For those of you in the dark, go read the post linked above and meet back here. Be sure to read through the comments, too. There’s some great ones.
So, back to Joey (who is a woman, by the way).
I know I should meet with her, but, honestly, I just don’t want to.
And why would she want to meet with me, demonized wretch that I am? We have not spoken in the 8 months since she made that pronouncement — in front of both our husbands, I might add. Frankly, it’s such a spiritual chasm, I have not known what to say.
I still don’t.
So I’m distracted.
(Oh, and if you’re here and want to follow the saga, go here, here, here, here, here, here, and HERE.
Oh, and then how it had a wee effect on drama camp last summer is discussed here and here and HERE.)
PHHEWWW!! I think that’s it on THAT.
I’m just wondering if meeting with her will really make a difference. She seems so set in her beliefs, wrong as they are. It is so harmful to take a verse and twist it to mean something else. Yes, our sins can affect others, as consequences don’t always limit themselves to us. But to have a “curse” that spans the generations, wreaking havoc and all sorts of punishment? No. I also don’t believe that a true believer can be possessed. Yes, we still struggle with sin, but Christ is our Savior, and the Holy Spirit is our guide, not demons. My two cents, anyway. I’ll be praying!
I think you should see her. “Love hopes all things” (1 Cor. 13:7), and maybe she wants to work things out. Even if she doesn’t, you might do her some good, if nothing else than by showing that real Christian love is unconditional, in contrast to her willing to lose the relationship over her quasi-spiritual elitism. I’m not saying it will be easy, of course.
You might also challenge her on her basis for doctrine in general. If all we need is a prooftext or three, we can just as easily become a Mormon, JW, Moonie or anything we want. But “anything we want” is not consistent with the apostolic, biblical message of repentance and recognizing that Jesus is Lord. Jesus; not some self-appointed, slick-talking, hellfire and brimstone demagogue, whom she has probably been listening to.
She might end the relationship. That will be her choice and it will be hurtful. But we didn’t sign up for an easy ride.
You know you have to see her. Maybe she’ll surprise you. Maybe she won’t. Maybe she’ll just upset you all over again. But you have to see her.
Pray. That’s what I’ll be doing.
I know I have to see her; but I’m admitting I don’t want to. There’s too much hurt and betrayal. Even though we haven’t spoken in all these months, there have been choices she’s made in the interim to betray the friendship further. My flesh says “no way,” but I know I can’t allow that to win.
Is it wrong to admit lack of desire here? I do know what’s required of me. I also know I do it with a heavy, anxious heart.
I don’t think a lack of desire is wrong. It’s about doing the right thing when we feel like it but also when we don’t. Jesus didn’t feel like going to Calvary, but He wasn’t acting on His own will.
If you’re having a hard time forgiving, that’s a bit different. Remember the parable of the two servants who owed money. The truth is, none of us deserve forgiveness. We get it anyway.
Hey, rev-ed!
Of course it’s right or ok to share your feelings and desires here! This is about you and not about a picture of you that we should be having or something like that.
I can understand that you don’t feel a desire to meet her even if you know you have to. I wouldn’t really desire it either if I were you.
((HUG))
I think I am not a good christian in terms of this group — or perhaps I am too blunt and too much of a pragmatist. I am all for extending an olive branch and I am all for closure. Either is a good reason for meeting with this person. However, I must disagree with Kevin. To state that meeting Joey and somehow swaying her beliefs is the “right” thing akin to Christ on the cross is just a bit much for me: “Even if she doesn’t [want to reconcile, Tracey] might do her some good, if nothing else than by showing that real Christian love is unconditional, in contrast to her willing to lose the relationship over her quasi-spiritual elitism.”
I don’t know, Kevin, is it Tracey’s responsibility to also convert her Islamic friends? How about any Jehovah’s Witnesses she knows? What about the two gay men she wrote about? To use the example of “Well, Christ didn’t want to be on the cross either” when talking about COFFEE with someone who has continually abused a friendship, misused scripture to an indecent degree and continually been destructive to her personally — well, again, it seems a bit much unless you are stating that it is our responsibility to convert and save each and every single person we meet — expending all our energy towards that goal without pause. THAT is the burden you are placing on Tracey when you say something like that. YES, it is our job to turn the other cheek and offer ministry to others. It is also our job to be wise and to parcel our resources where they will do the most good … unless we ARE Jesus Christ and have his endless resources.
I guess I’m more in line with RevEd’s sense of pragmatism. “You know you have to see her. Maybe she’ll surprise you. Maybe she won’t. Maybe she’ll just upset you all over again. But you have to see her.” I’d carry it one step further, however.
This woman betrayed the friendship in numerous ways, twisted verses of the Bible (ad nauseum) told Trace she’s cursed and possessed by demons and, in general, continues to wreak havoc and destruction in her life? Here’s the thing — we all have a finite amount of time and energy in this world and there are times we must draw lines. Not angry, hurtful lines. Simply lines that say “We have two different belief systems.” So Tracey, would you keep a friendship open with someone harmful to your husband? How about someone harmful to your niece — perhaps a pedophile? Certainly no one is beyond redemption and we should always listen with our heart. But equally certainly, if someone is HARMFUL to you personally and tries to undermine your belief system I don’t see that you have a duty to keep the friendship alive or a duty to be her salvation. We all have missions in life. What is your calling and duty to this one person? Good luck. 😀
ummmm … okay, so that last comment was maybe a little too vehement. Sorry Kevin — didn’t mean to come down on you like a ton of bricks. What was I saying about being too blunt? Oh yeah … 😀
Linda — Not “vehement”; let’s say “passionate.” 😉
Well, again, I know my obligations here. I do. I’ll lay them out, for you and myself:
I must meet with her
I must love her in the Lord
I must forgive her
And as much as I don’t want to do the first one, it’s a cakewalk compared to the last two.
We’re talking about a 15-year friendship here. She was not just any friend, she was my best friend. I’ve known her longer than I’ve known my husband and I know her very, very well. Rev-ed said, “Maybe she’ll surprise you.” (I’m assuming you mean that in a positive way!) So maybe, Rev, but based on my greater knowledge of the person, allow me to say it’s not likely. I’d sure like to pray for the “maybe,” but she’s begun to walk down a dark and errant spiritual road and she wants me to walk it with her.
And I can’t. I just can’t.
If it means I sacrifice the friendship for the sake of Truth, then ….. (sigh) so be it. And when I think of what we’ve walked through together for lo these many years, it sickens me to write that.
But do I walk down this road with her, lose perspective on Truth, embrace her truths, so that I can have my friend? The me I was even a few years ago would have done that; not this version of me.
So meeting with her — I can do that, as an act of my will, more than my heart.
Loving her — I can do that, when I think of all the ways she enriched my life for so many years.
Forgiving her — Ugh. Kevin wrote, “If you’re having a hard time forgiving her, that’s a bit different.” I guess I’d say I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have a hard time forgiving. To actually, really do it is a gut-wrenching process, but it’s a process I need to embrace nonetheless. I once read a quote that’s stuck with me: “The process of forgiveness isn’t anti-anger; it’s anti-hate.”
I have anger toward my friend; I think that’s evident. Even as I practice forgiveness, it may bubble up from time to time. That means I’m not done. I’m one who believes it’s a process, not a one-time event. Those who make it a one-time event turn it into some blithe, nearly meaningless ritual, rather than the soul-changing process I think it’s meant to be.
I like this quote too: “You’ll know you’ve truly forgiven when you rejoice at seeing your former enemy blessed.”
I think that’s a pretty fair standard.
And I’m not there yet, peeps.
And I know I’m not.
Tracey, I don’t want to pretend I know what all is going on with this (a newbie to your blog), but why can’t you just tell her how you feel?
Tell her you think she’s wrong, or mistaken, or did the wrong thing. Tell her she hurt you but you won’t hold it against her. Tell her to agree to disagree and go on with the friendhip. I have very close friends who stand on the other side of the fence on some issues. We remain friends.
BUT, I think forgiving is not forgetting. They are two separate things and not to be confused. If someone continually hurts you emotionally, you can and must forgive them, but you might need to push them out of your life. This means you can’t forget what they can do to you, you shouldn’t. My mother hurt me and those close to me several times, and I eventually had to push her out of my life for my families sake. I don’t hold a grudge, but I don’t let her in either. Does that sound hypocritical?
1. Someone who does these things is not your friend. You therefore owe her about as much as a total stranger on the street.
2. I have this in my life right now too. One of my *bridesmaids* was my best friend growing up. Now we have nothing in common (she’s a self-centered drama queen). I’ve invited her over numerous times and she keeps declining. But then she calls several months later and asks why I never call her. Weird. I’ve made up my mind to be polite at functions (her family and my family have been friends so long, we might as well be related), to include her in the wedding (or future gatherings would be tense), to love her, forgive her and stay the HELL AWAY FROM HER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt when she tries to manipulate me and make me feel like the bad guy. I have to get reassurance from MF sometimes as I play back our conversations to him. She’s *that* good at being evil and manipulative.
3. The older I get, the less time I have for B.S.. Look her in the face and tell her she hurt you. Be specific: How and Why. Period. Don’t dance around it like it’s not there. HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO STOP AN INJUSTICE IF WE STAY SILENT?! THAT’S B.S.! I did that for years with my aforementioned friend’s Mom. I finally called her out. And guess what? She got mad at me, told me how peeved she was, and pouted. But it drew attention to the situation. Now other people in my family are starting to stand up. SOMEBODY’S GOTTA’ GO FIRST!
4. You do not deserve to be walked on. You’re worth infinitely more than that.
5. If someone were doing this to your child, would you be polite and not address the offender? Yeah, that’s what God thinks too. He wants to see this righted. You can love and forgive all you want, but if she refuses to repent, honey, shake the dust off your sandals. PERIOD.
*high five*
Looks like I stumbled upon your blog just as things have gotten interesting. I was hooked as soon as I read about the “rules” at camp. I will definitely be back to see how all of this plays out. 🙂
Hey, I found your site while searching something random about CS Lewis. Found it interesting. You’re a great writer presenting a rare (needed) perspective. I’m adding a link to it off my blog. Hope that’s cool.
MC — No, not hypocritical, sensible. Forgiving doesn’t necessarily mean restoration of a relationship.
I don’t know if you read the original “demon” post, but my friend is quite adamant on what I’m supposed to do and is willing to risk the friendship on it. Maybe she’s changed her stance on that, but since she has a ministry that focuses on “deliverance,” since her marriage was put back together by citing demons as the cause of trauma, I’m not too hopeful on that score.
Bear in mind, too, that the issue is more complex than I’ve shared. For some brevity’s sake, I’ve tried to boil it down to the basics.
I’m sure, MC, that I will tell her how I feel. But the person I know now is quite entrenched in this belief system. It’s the wall that protects the innermost workings of her life and her heart.
And it’s false. That’s blunt of me, but it’s false. I can say that with some knowledge because I have walked down that road in the past; I have had “deliverance” prayer. I have a half-finished draft about that experience, but for now let me just say it’s more than simply useless; it’s damaging. It brought me nothing but harm and confusion. This isn’t just a friendly discussion over something debatable, like, say “pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib.” No, it cuts to the very core of who we believe Jesus is, of who we believe is sovereign, of whether we follow scripture or not, even of what Jesus we believe in.
I can’t compromise on that. I want my friend. Desperately. I love her. But my love for Jesus has to be first.
Don’t think for one moment this isn’t killing me ….
Bennett and DP: Thanks! And welcome! I’ll come and check you out, too. But, Bennett, you searched for something on C.S. Lewis and it brought you here? That’s just …. not right.
And it’s not a post until WordGirl’s in the house … 😉
lindalu2, I’m not saying Tracey has a responsibility to convert everyone, but to love and forgive her friend. To die to self and say with Jesus, “Not my will but Yours be done”. Tracey answers for her own relationship with God, not her friend’s.
And Tracey, I know it’s not easy. For years now my wife and I have been subjected to the same stuff from my brother in law. First we’re unspiritual because we won’t get into the teachings of Benny Hinn or the Toronto Blessing, and our concerns were rejected out of hand. (Actual quote: “Just because someone prophecies falsely, does that make them a false prophet?”) Lately, we’re unspiritual because we didn’t declare in “faith” that my father in law, in late stage lung and brain cancer, would be healed, and he passed away. And also because we didn’t –er– connect with his soon-to-be third wife after he cheated on the previous two. He’s disgusted the whole family and we have every “right” to write him off. But that’s not the heart of the Shepherd.
We’ve witnessed my brother in law being subject to the Law of Diminishing Returns. Every new fancy has to be more dramatic than the last one to keep his interest, and I think there will come a point where he becomes tired of blaming his self-seeking on the leading of the Holy Spirit and comes to the end of himself. When he does, we will welcome him back.
I hear you, Kevin. Benny Hinn? Toronto Blessing? Yep. Heard it all, too. From my friend and others.
I guess it’s boiling down to the question of what kind of relationship I can have with her at this point. It will, no doubt, be demonstrably different. For me, among the other issues, there’s the core of broken trust, a place I never thought I’d be with this particular person.
So where trust is broken, how wise is it to let that person back in?
Tracey,
He loved them, served them, but didn’t put his confidence in them. He knew that they could –and would– let Him down.
It’s good to have friends we can trust– rely on. But they are like us: fallible, imperfect, sinners. That’s why we are told to be
The reason we have to be told this is because we do let one another down at times. It’s part of what makes love so hard, so costly. It sounds to me like this is the lesson you’re learning right now.
“Let her back in”? Into your affection, your company, sure. Expect her to never fail you again? You’d just set yourself up for more hurt and disappointment. Does this answer your question, or do you mean something else?
BTW, your openness and honesty are refreshing, and an example to many. See, we all have our strengths and weaknesses 😀 I’ve just blogrolled you.
How do you get the text to do that neato block quote-ie thing? Tha’s really cool.
WordGirl,
Do this without the spaces in the tags:
WG — I was wondering that, too. Perhaps Kevin will enlighten us all, but I understand if he wants to keep it his little secret…
Kevin — I don’t expect her never to fail me again. We have both failed each other in the past, but nothing, ever, of this magnitude. The current impasse is unprecedented in our relationship; fundamentally, it’s different from any other conflict we’ve had.
What I’m asking myself is this: Should a relationship as longstanding as ours, but now as broken as ours, be restored? As I said to MC’s comment, forgiveness doesn’t necessarily mean a relationship is restored to all its former glory — or even at all. There are things I’d need to hear from her first, things I’d need to see, which I will keep to myself. Forgiveness, I believe, can happen whether fellowship is restored or not and it’s not necessarily an open door to all that the relationship once was.
Dang! It didn’t work. Go here and read the part under Blockquote. The first line they show you is all you need.
I guess my question for you, Kevin, is does forgiveness necessitate fellowship?
Well Tracey, I think you’re right. The relationship will likely never be the same. And at this stage, it’s probably impossible to know what shape the relationship would take in the future, if any. Whatever the nature of the offenses, she needs to hear them if she hasn’t already. If she won’t listen, then clearly the relationship can’t be renewed. If she does, and she’s sorry, I suggest taking it s-l-o-w-l-y, keeping in mind that she still might fail you again. And just take it one step at a time. Sorry I can’t tell you anything more definitive than that.
“Does forgiveness necessitate fellowship?”
To some extent, yes. Do you have fellowship with everyone at your church? Does that mean that you talk to them every day, hang out with them every day, confide in them your innermost thoughts? Of course not, right? It’s not an all-or-nothing thing. Balance is the key. And fellowship with her in the context of a group, i.e. including others, I think would be more healthy.
Well, right. That’s where my thoughts have been mostly. I can only truly assess the state of the relationship when I talk to her. Then and only then can I begin to make decisions about fellowship, asking the Lord’s wisdom and guidance.
I’ll know more by next Friday …. (gulp of, well, dread)
tracey –
I hope you didn’t think I was coming down on you. I read the post as you considering not seeing her. Glad you already knew what I already told you. . . or something like that!
Anyway, does forgiveness necessitate fellowship? No, I don’t think so. But I think it does rule out the whole “I never wanna see you or talk to you again” mindset. I could forgive a child molester, but that doesn’t mean I would put him in charge of the church nursery, if you get my drift. I think forgiveness is about living in peace.
No, Rev. I didn’t think that. I think I sounded too adamant in my response to your comment. And the post does rather read like “I’m not going to see her …. so there.”
I can certainly see how you thought that. I’m sorry for coming on strong there.
And yes, we are called as much as we are able, as much as it depends on us, to be at peace with all men.